And so what? your friend is one individual in the world, because he disagrees with the church then his automatically right? ok because of this story I will now convert, lol please be realistic.
the statistics show thousands of people returning and converting to the church every year, not only is it already the biggest church and it is still growing. I have many protestant friends who have studied the church teaching and have decided Protestantism is a man made denomination, consisting of roughly 33,200 different denominations. pick and choose my friend.
I belong to the ONE Holy Roman catholic Apolistic Church.
Jesus himself is constantly interceding for us in heaven as is the Holy Spirit:
Hebrews 7:25 Consequently [Christ] is able for all time to
save those who draw near to God through
him, since he always lives to make
intercession for them.
Romans 8:
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our
weakness; for we do not know how to pray as
we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes
for us with sighs too deep for words.
27 And he who searches the hearts of men
knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because
the Spirit intercedes for the saints according
to the will of God...
33 Who shall bring any charge against God's
elect? It is God who justifies;
34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus,
who died, yes, who was raised from the dead,
who is at the right hand of God, who indeed
intercedes for us?
The saints who have gone before us are joined to Christ in a way that we can only imagine but we try to emulate their sanctity on earth which is our way of joining ourselves to Christ. One way we do this is by intercessory prayer for each other.
1 Timothy 2:
1 First of all, then, I urge
that supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions,
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life,
godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one
mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus,
It is indeed biblical that we pray for each other while on earth. Not only for those within the household of faith, but also for those OUTSIDE the Christian faith. How much MORE so will we do this when we are in Heaven?
He said that it wasn't in the Bible, and I couldn't think of any references of the top of my head that defended this belief, but I did say that this was a belief of Christians before the Bible was written. Am I presuming rightly in saying this?
Actually, prayers to and for the dead were an old Jewish custom which was carried over into the Church. There are in fact several relevant scriptures:
2Maccabees 15:
11 [Judas Maccabeus] armed each of them not so much with
confidence in shields and spears as with the
inspiration of brave words, and he cheered
them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision,
which was worthy of belief.
12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had
been high priest, a noble and good man, of
modest bearing and gentle manner, one who
spoke fittingly and had been trained from
childhood in all that belongs to excellence,
was praying with outstretched hands for the
whole body of the Jews.
13 Then likewise a man appeared,
distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and
of marvelous majesty and authority.
14 And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man
who loves the brethren and prays much for
the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the
prophet of God."
15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and
gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave
it he addressed him thus:
16 "Take this holy sword, a gift from God,
with which you will strike down your
adversaries."
17 Encouraged by the words of Judas, so
noble and so effective in arousing valor and
awaking manliness in the souls of the young,
they determined not to carry on a campaign
but to attack bravely, and to decide the
matter, by fighting hand to hand with all
courage, because the city and the sanctuary
and the temple were in danger.
Revelation
5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four
living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell
down before the Lamb, each holding a harp,
and with golden bowls full of incense, which
are the prayers of the saints;
6: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under
the altar the souls of those who had been
slain for the word of God and for the witness
they had borne;
10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O
Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long
before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood
on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11 Then they were each given a white robe
and told to rest a little longer, until the
number of their fellow servants and their
brethren should be complete, who were to be
killed as they themselves had been.
8: 3 And another angel came and stood at the
altar with a golden censer; and he was given
much incense to mingle with the prayers of all
the saints upon the golden altar before the
throne;
4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the
prayers of the saints from the hand of the
angel before God.
5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it
with fire from the altar and threw it on the
earth; and there were peals of thunder,
voices, flashes of lightning, and an
earthquake.
16:6 For men have shed the blood of saints and
prophets, and thou hast given them blood to
drink. It is their due!
18: 20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and
apostles and prophets, for God has given
judgment for you against her!
We can see in these passages that intercession of the saints was a given in the Biblical worldview. There is no evidence of "soul-sleep" or of indifference to the fate of those on earth. Furthermore, we must remember what was said of Jesus:
Hebrews 7: 25 Consequently he is able for all time to
save those who draw near to God through
him, since he always lives to make
intercession for them.
Because Jesus "always lives" he will of necessity make intercession for men on earth. When we couple this to what Our Lord himself said:
John 11:
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection
and the life; he who believes in me, though
he die, yet shall he live,
26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall
never die. Do you believe this?"
Those who are alive in Christ even now in heavenly glory will emulate him in all things, including intercession for those on earth.
Anyway, what I'd like to know is: 1.When did Protestants start believing that heavenly intercession was some kind of pagan necromancing,
This was a polemical comment the origin of which I don't know. I do know that such a charge was levied by anti-Catholics in the 18th Century especially those from Scotland. It is a silly charge because necromancy is a practice of ritual magic in which a spirit is mediumistically conjured from the dead such as happened in 1Samuel 28:3ff. The invocation of the saints in prayer is no such thing. We do not conjure their presence. Instead we know that they stand in the presence of Christ and we petition them to join their prayer with ours before Him. We do not call them down to earth, rather we lift our prayers up to heaven.
2. Why did they believe this,
Protestant soteriology is/was hopelessly confused. While it acknowledges that the holy dead are in the presence of Christ after death, they act as if they are no longer a living part of the Church. I have heard John MacArthur claim that the saints in heaven have amnesia about the people and events they left behind on Earth. any fool who has read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man or Revelation knows that this is not Biblical. The Protestants honestly thought that the intercessory prayers through the saints would detract from the glory due to God. But did not the Bible tell us:
Job 42:
7 After the LORD had spoken these words to
Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite:
"My wrath is kindled against you and against
your two friends; for you have not spoken of
me what is right, as my servant Job has.
8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven
rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up
for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant
Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his
prayer not to deal with you according to your
folly; for you have not spoken of me what is
right, as my servant Job has."
James 5: 16 Therefore confess your sins to one
another, and pray for one another, that you
may be healed. The prayer of a righteous
man has great power in its effects.
When we invoke the intercession of the saints, we are only doing what Scripture has shown us to be an effective way of bringing petitions before God.
At what point did Christians believe that people in Heaven were praying for them,
We have evidence from tombs in the 2nd Century of requests for prayers directed to the dead.
4. When did the Church actually start teaching that people in Heaven were praying for us still on Earth?
This was a Jewish custom and was believed as far as I know from the very beginning of the Church.
"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina