Your words will be in italics
First off all, I would like to say, do not mention the word “logical” when discussing the nature of God. You Muslims say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being God is illogical because it is mathematically impossible, yet you Muslims believe in the virgin birth which is biologically impossible. So please, logic plays no key in this debate.
It amuses me how quickly you would wish to throw out logic when discussing a topic such as Christ’s divinity. Without logic, you could string together verses that don’t mean anything and then tell us it is right. It’s also amusing how your kind deems one a ‘Heretic’ if they don’t believe in the Trinity. ‘Us Muslims’ were not the one who invented the Trinity theory, and we are also not the ones that tried to prove it mathematically with the equation 1x1x1=1 in which Brother Katatonic Bliss has already discussed and refuted. God’s whole world IS logic! How can you say to leave out logic when everything that happens is based on mathematics and logic? Logic is the ENTIRE key to this debate! The Virgin Birth is not biologically impossible, actually. With the miracles of modern science, a virgin can receive artificial insemination and bear a child without ever having sex.
Secondly, I agree with you that when Christ says He and the Father are one, that does not mean that Jesus is God. But passages which display oneness do not need to be used to show that Christ is God. There are way better passages:
I’m glad you agree with me. My initial point is proven. But, in the interest of logic [oh no, the ‘L’ word!], Let’s discuss the rest of your post.
Phillippians 2:5-8>Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, Being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
You know, at first I was expecting some real evidence, like a quote from Jesus claiming he was God but then I reminded myself that there is no such thing. Even the site www.answering-islam.org admits that Jesus never declared himself God. So, all we are left with are quotes from the disciples, the apostles, and the common man. Paul was shunned by the twelve original apostles because of his teachings. He never once saw, spoke, or touched Jesus. He is the only author of the Bible that preaches that Jesus is Lord. Every single prophet since Adam worshipped One God. But, lets look at the quote. So, Paul is telling us that Jesus was in the form of God and humbled himself and became obedient. To whom? The Father? This I guess is a pitiful attempt to explain the ‘three separate’ part of the Trinity. Is Jesus God, or is Jesus the Word of God? Make up your minds. If Jesus was God, but separate from the Father, then he was never a part of the Father to begin with! Paul is describing Jesus to be alongside the Father, and correct me if I am mistaken but isn’t the first of the Ten Commandments that God gave to Moses ‘Thou shalt have no others beside me?’ If you go with the ‘Jesus is the Word’ theory, then you are acknowledging something other than the Creator, which is what you are commanded to worship. But no, that would mean that Christianity is *gasp* polytheistic! If you decide to say that Jesus is God, then Jesus cannot be God’s Word, which we clearly know that Jesus IS God’s Word by reading John 1:1. This does not even come close to proving Trinity either, for the Word was only with God, NOT GOD. I remember going to church… every time after we sang a bunch of freaky hymnals and compared clothing with each other, the pastor would say ‘The Lord be with you.’ The crowd would then respond ‘And also with you.’ Now, if we say that John 1:1 proves Trinity, then why would the pastor commit such a blasphemy as asking God to make the people equal with Him? Because surely is Jesus is God, and Jesus is the Word, and you say the Word is with God making the Word equal to God – Do you see where you guys are having trouble convincing us that this Trinity thing actually exists? I know you guys abhor logic, but most other people in this world use logic for everything. Muslims have been using logic for centuries to prove the miracles in the Qur’an to be true. So, with this quote, Paul is directly contradicting John in saying that Christ is God. This is blasphemy and I think everyone will agree that John the Baptist is a much more reliable source than Paul.
Jesus is God in the flesh:
1 Timothy 3:16>And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Paul again. It’s odd that you would rather quote Paul than people who actually KNEW Jesus, but then again those people never worshipped Jesus. So once again Paul contradicts Peter in saying that Jesus is God and not the Word of God. Make up your mind on which one you wish to believe. If you want to believe Paul, I can show you how he contradicts Jesus.
The next two quotes [ Colossians 1:14-15 & Colossians 2:9-10 ] are written by Paul and basically cover the same statements that he made in the first two quotes. Stop quoting Paul. His quotes are not reliable and contradictory to the teachings of Jesus.
Hebrews 1:8>But unto the Son (Jesus) He (Father) saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy Kingdom.
This quote isn’t very convincing. The author of Hebrews is unknown and therefore we do not know how credible the author is. The writings, although not Paul’s is similar in teaching that Christ is Lord. The author justifies that Jesus is superior to the angels because the angels were commanded to bow down to him. God also commanded the angels to bow down to Adam. Does this make Adam God as well? This is not a quote from Jesus or one of his true followers and so it can be deemed hearsay and unreliable.
Mark 2:5-12>When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, He saith to the sick of the palsy , I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
Finally we get some reliable material. However, if you read the passage, the refutation to your claim appears in the very next sentence! ‘But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins.’ Jesus had the power to forgive sins. He attained this power by God’s leave. Never once does he take credit for a miracle. Not once.
You have not refuted my claim that Christ’s human qualities do not make him God because your quotes come from a man that contradicts Jesus’ teachings! Not only that, but the quotes contradict the Gospel of John! Therefore you end up right back where you started.
Not exactly. The Old Testament passage refers to God. Not a part of God, but God. If Jesus was God, people would die when they saw his face. Jesus is not God because he acknowledged a higher power than himself, and he worshipped that higher power.
On a side note, if logic cannot be used when discussing the nature of God, then that would mean that God is illogical. If that is true, I guess Hitler is God’s buddy, since we are going to throw all this ‘logic’ nonsense out. Oh, wait, Hitler IS God’s buddy. He was a Christian.