"Aineo"
"Actually Simonline I am not a Calvinist, I simply believe that we are saved by grace, a gift, like salvation from God. Your appeal to the OT only shows you have a legalistic approach to Scripture.
"Men come to repentance through the will of God not by an exercise of free will. The Holy Spirit convicts and converts, not you or me." If this is what you really believe then you are indeed a Calvinist my friend.
"Your appeal to the OT only shows you have a legalistic approach to Scripture." So, following this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, you must also believe that Jesus has a "legalistic approach to Scripture" since He never once quotes from the New Testament?! (Just because someone quotes from the Old Testament that does not necessarily mean that they have a legalistic approach to Scripture.)
"I would remind you what Christ said about judging:
Matt 7:1-5
7:1 "Do not judge lest you be judged. 2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 "And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
NAS
So what you are actually saying then is that unbelievers should not be told the truth or warned about the danger that they are in because of their sin since this is an act of judgement on the part of those who would seek to warn them. Rather, only believers should be made explicitly aware of the nature and consequences of sin whilst the rest of the poor unfortunate souls should be left to flounder in blissful ignorance only to discover the truth on Judgement Day as Christ reads out the judgement against them and the subsequent sentence of death before having them hurled into the everlasting Lake of Fire (the "good news" of salvation is completely meaningless without first coming to an understanding of the reality of the "bad news" of sin first)?!
"Divorce is a sin and you could use Ex 20:13 against ever-straights who go through marriage like a revolving door, or alcoholism, drug addiction, etc. The institutional church has groups to help addicts, but very few sponsor ex-gay ministries."
Agreed. This is a terrible indictment upon the Church which urgently needs rectifying.
"Everything else you have to say is great if the people to whom you are ministering are Christians. Yet most of the gay men and lesbian women I know have no real knowledge of the Bible or what Christianity is all about. Like others with a legalistic attitude toward gay men and lesbian women you start with what you know and expect the whole world to agree with you or accept you faith as real. This is not reality."
With all due respect I do not have a legalistic attitude to homosexuality. I simply believe categorically and unequivocally (in accordance with what Scripture teaches) that homosexuality is sinful. I endeavour to communicate this in as loving and compassionate a way as I can but as a Christian who belives that truth is absolute and not relative I cannot and will not compromise on this.
"Do I believe that God alone brings us to salvation? Yes. What you are teaching is salvation by works. Make yourself perfect, clean, righteous, and then come to Jesus Christ. You are asking gays and lesbians to die to themselves and then come to Christ and actually it is the other way around."
"Do I believe that God alone brings us to salvation? Yes." (And you're trying to convince me that you're not a Calvinist?!)
For the record, I am not teaching "salvation by legalistically manufactured self-righteousness" but I am teaching that salvation in order to be shown to be authentic must be accompanied by works of righteousness (Jas.2:14-26) therefore the true Biblical gospel (as opposed to popular Evangelicalism's parody of it) is actually a gospel of salvation by faith and works and not just "faith alone" (for "faith" read "giving mental ascent to a set of theological propositions").
"Make yourself perfect, clean, righteous, and then come to Jesus Christ. You are asking gays and lesbians to die to themselves and then come to Christ and actually it is the other way around." This is not the Biblical gospel and as such is not at all what I am advocating.
The first stage of the Biblical gospel is a call to repentance from any and all forms of sinful behaviour and attitudes and a turning towards God. This requires an act of the will on the part of the sinner in order to choose to repent and turn away from sin and towards God. This repentance must be public and wholehearted (not secret and half-hearted) and, where appropriate, unwholesome and unhealthy associations and or relationships must be either redefined or terminated, whilst restoration and restitution must be made for past wrongs, also as appropriate. This then shows the community in which the person lives that this person is serious about getting right with God and that they are not just playing at it by simply coating themselves with a religious veneer. They are then required to believe (i.e. trust implicitly) in the life, death and resurrection of God's Son, Jesus Christ, as the exclusive means of salvation which God alone has wrought for them (Jn.14:6; Acts. 4:12). After this they are to undergo baptism in water as the means by which their personal death to the old self and their being raised to new life in Christ is achieved (according to scripture water baptism is not merely symbolic (as many Christians erroneously believe) but also instrumental (it is not "like" a bath it actually is a bath (Tit.3:5) - it is not "like" a burial it actually is a burial (Rom.6:3,4) in other words it actually achieves these spiritual realities rather than simply symbolically representing them - and, no, I do not believe in the accursed doctrine of baptismal regeneration or "ex opere operato" but rather that it is by the faith of the one undergoing baptism that these spiritual realities occur otherwise it is nothing more than water washing a dirty body and that's it). Finally, having now dealt with and "signed off" the believers past through water baptism, the normal procedure is that the believer then receives the baptism of the Spirit in order to enable them to successfully live the Christian life and to walk upright and blameless in God's sight (Rom.8). From then on they are said to be "on the way" and working out their salvation with fear and trembling (a.k.a.sanctification) this is when the believer learns how to "die to self" by daily, nay, moment by moment, putting off the sinful nature and being clothed with Christ's righteousness, by being transformed by the renewing of the mind (Rom.12:1,2) etc.
"Faith is a gift from God.
Salvation is a gift from God.
The Holy Spirit seals us AFTER salvation.
Repentance is a work after salvation.
Christ said "Many are called, but FEW are chosen.
Paul wrote (and I paraphrase) some sow, some water, BUT GOD BRINGS THE INCREASE. Have you ever studied Ephesians?"
Actually there is no "after salvation" since salvation lasts forever. What we are sealed after by the Holy Spirit is Justification. Repentance does not come "after salvation" either since it is actually a part of salvation. Only Justification ("I have been saved") is that part of salvation which can be thought of in terms of a "demarcation line". Sanctification ("I am being saved") is a definate process and should never be thought of in terms of a "demarcation line" whilst Glorification ("I will be saved") is still a future event which will only be realized at the consumation of the Kingdom.
"Christ said "Many are called, but FEW are chosen.
Paul wrote (and I paraphrase) some sow, some water, BUT GOD BRINGS THE INCREASE." I'm not sure what point it is you're trying to make here?
In answer to your question, yes, I have studied Ephesians.
"If you want to take on the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churchs (UFMCC), the largest pro-gay denomination in the world and other gay friendly churches with your stand -- fine, I agree with everything you say. However, members of the UFMCC have rejected the truth for a lie. They have exercised their free will and chosen to "worship man and not the Creator". But, I will repeat, many, probably most, gay men and lesbian women are not Christian or have any desire to become one. So you have to first preach the gospel and let GOD BRING THE INCREASE."
But I was under the impression that that is in fact what I am doing?!
"I have asked other's this question and never received an answer, let see if you can. Where in the Bible does it give us as Christians the authority to judge those outside the Body of Christ? Because that is exactly what you and other heterocentric Christians are doing."
Except perhaps for during the millennium, there is, as far as I am aware, no mandate for Christians to judge those outside the Church. Au contrare, Paul expressly forbids it (1Cor.5 especially verses 9-13). However, if, in your mind, the proclamation of the gospel (which involves proclaiming the need for repentance from sinful acts and attitudes (including homosexuality)) is synonymous with judging those outside the Church as you seem to be arguing then you are faced with quite a dilemma are you not? How do you propose to resolve this dilemma?
"Yes, I believe in free will. But without the "Hound Of Heaven" (a Roman Catholic way of referring to the Holy Spirit) to convict we will not exercise that free will in favor of Christianity."
Yes, I am familiar with the term "Hound of Heaven" and I personally have no problem with that term (or the concept it seeks to convey) theologically speaking.
Simonline.