Hi again Kaisar
Thanks for your apply. I have a few questions and some replies to your last reply of my post.
You write:
Surah 2, verse 79:
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say: "This is from Allah" to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby.
"
Kai replies:
First of all, as I mentioned in my last post concerning this passage, we need to look at it in the full context.
First of all verse 75 says:
75 Do you then hope that they will believe in you, when some of them have already heard the Word of Allah and knowingly tampered with it, after they understood it!
In other words, there were some who heard Allah's word and knowingly tampered with it. There is nothing suggesting here, that they necessarily were Christians or Jews.
76 When they meet those who believe, they say: 'We are believers.' But when alone, they say to their other (chiefs). 'Do you tell to them what Allah has revealed to you so that they will dispute with you concerning it with your Lord? Have you no sense?'
77 Do they not know that Allah has knowledge of all they hide and all that they reveal!
78 And some of them are common (people) and do not know the Book, but only wishful thoughts, and they are only doubters.
There are some particular elements of importance here, first of all, we are nothing talking about all of them, but some of them. So even though the passage was referring to Christian, it talks about some Christians. Secondly they do not know the Book, and again do we refer to the Bible or the Koran here?
79 Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say: 'This is from Allah,' in order to gain a small price for it. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings
From the above we need to interpret verse 79, which shows that the corrupter was not corrupting but writing a whole different book, claiming this to be the Book of God, with the intention to get some price for it.
However, nothing from the Koranic context reveals Bible corruption, and not reveals the corrupters or writers to be Christians or Jews.
Kaisar then qoutes Ibn Abbas:
In explanation of this verse, Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 9.461 says:
"Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"
Kai writes back
As to your qoute of Ibn Abbas, you quote from the Hadiths, I wonder why you consider this particular passage to argue bible corruption as being the main matter in the koranic passage above.
First of all since the words are uttered by Ibn Abbas, a man not God, thus I cannot accept your defence of the matter as valid. The passage is not even uttered by Muhammad and even if it was, I stíll would challenge you to prove your point from what you consider the Word of God, not mans.
Secondly, as you stated in reply to me on my other topic in this forum "Islamic science under attack", the Hadiths are unreliable because narrators may possibly have corrupted the e.g. Sahih Bukhari severely.
Thirdly, it seems very obvious that the passage both reads into and changes the text of the Koran, and it is done by a man who does not even contain prophetical gifting.
In other words by quoting the Hadiths and in this one in particular, there are few issues that arise:
The passage is not the word of God
The passage is not even spoken by Muhammad
The passage reads into or changes the text of the Koran
The passage may very well be corrupted in the first place
Kaisar continues on the Hadith passage:
This Hadith clarifies that:
1. We should refer to the newest and latest revelation of Allah.
2. The Quran is pure, undistorted and unchanged.
3. The Jews and Christians changed their scripture, and distorted it
Kai writes:
I would challenge your statement on the ground of my conclusion above, and that is as follows: the Hadith text is not divine revelation, it is not spoken by a prophet, the text might be corrupted and last of all it contradicts the Koranic passage itself.
Then Kaisar changes the subject, a topic which we should leave for another post. However, let me just touch it.
Is Muhammad found in the Bible, possibly you refer to this topic as the only reason for reading the previous revelations.
Kaisar qoutes Isaiah 29:12:
12 Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
Kai writes
Now first of all I dont see the active or passive role of Muhammad in this passage and secondly Kaisar is taking the verse completely out of context. So let's look at the context (Is.29:10-13):
10 The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
He has sealed your eyes (the prophets);
he has covered your heads (the seers).
11 For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
12 Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
If this indeed talks about Muhammad then the context is a text of condemnation, in other words Muhammad is under God's wrath according to verse 13:
The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men
Secondly accordig to verse 10 if we do talk about Muhammad, his eyes have been sealed not opened.
Thirdly if Muhammad is the one who cant read in verse 12, who is the one who cant read because his eyes sealed in verse 11, you completely left that out, this is picking and choosing.
To summarize it, the passage is a message of wrath for Israels stuborness some cant read because they simply cant and others eyes are sealed, but nothing in the context even indicates Muhammad.
In the same way with the Song of songs. Muhummudin simply means loved on in Hebrew, it has got nothing to do with the Muhammad, and if you look at the context the passage speaks about David or a Shepherd boy living in the same time. There is nothing in the text which even indicates or refers to Muhammad.
Best wishes Kai