Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilahMaryam is still an Aaronite?
would you care to show us where you are obtaining this from your koran alone? Am I talking to a brick wall? If you are a descendant of someone why would you be called the "sister of that someone" wouldn't the "daughter of that someone" be the appropriate term?. Are you going to show us where the jews are using this term referring to other jews as "sister of Aaron"?
Do you realise the height of arrogance it takes to go to the bible and claim it says what it doesn't say, now you are expecting us to believe that the bible supports that Mary was an Aaronite, and since you claim to be jewish Jesus is now an Aaronite? not a descendant of David and therefore might as well not be the messiah according to you
I will try to answer all of this in one shot with the rest of you posts that follow dealing with the same issue with Maryam.
First I want to get one thing clear. You keep saying I am a Jew or I claim to be a Jew, I never told you such a thing. I said I use to be Jew, and now I am muslim. I was not Jewish by family or descent I was Jewish by convertion.
فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا (19:27)
يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ امْرَأَ سَوْءٍ وَمَا كَانَتْ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّا (19:28)
Then she brought him (the baby Jesus) to her clan (qawm)* carrying him. They said : " O Maryam Indeed you have done something unheard-of !* O Sister of Aaron your father was not an evil man nor was she-your mother a whore ! *
When Maryam brought the child to her " قوم = qawm" or clan [not people indicating the Jewish people in general but the clan her family was affiliated with http://alqamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.a ... =%de%e6%e3]
They saw her with child whereas they exclaimed by addressing her by her known name " yaa maryam = O Maryam ! " followed by an accusation of doing something unheard-of i.e. fornication
The question here is, to WHOM was this act unheard-of among. Obviously it is not refering to the Jews in general but to " قومها = qawmahaa " her clan and lineage of family.
What clan was this whom never commited adultry or fornication among the Jewish people and it was a thing unheard-of in their lineage ?
From what is understood here, in islam, this is refering to the priestly clan known as the Aaronites at that time.
Her clan then again exclaims to her not using her regular name(Maryam) but now changes it to:
"O Sister of Aaron.... "with the following"...your father was not an evil man nor was she-your mother a whore !"
Maryam is now being reminded of her honorable STATUS and lineage which is the reason for the change from her regular name Maryam to the status Sister of Aaron etc.
We understand this as a commemorated status of purity, as the context reflects, reputed after the purity of Miryam (whom she was named after) Sister of Aaron brother of Moses.
The above collaborates with what was heard the Prophet to have said :
المغيرة بن شعبة قال
لما قدمت نجران سألوني فقالوا إنكم تقرءون يا أخت هارون وموسى قبل عيسى بكذا وكذا فلما قدمت على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سألته عن ذلك فقال إنهم كانوا يسمون بأنبيائهم والصالحين قبلهم
Mughira b. Shu'ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun" (i.e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.
Maryam the mother of Jesus was named after a pious person whom was known as Miryam Sister of Aaron ~ brother of
Moses
Then she brought him (the baby Jesus) to her clan (qawm)* carrying him. They said : " O Maryam Indeed you have done something unheard-of !* O Sister of Aaron your father was not an evil man nor was she-your mother a whore ! *
Now pay attention to the Hadith. The Christians said in Arabic " ...taqra 'uoona yaa ukhta haaroon.. " ..you (Mughirah) recited in support O Sister of Aaron..."
1) "taqra" is in the singular pronoun "you(Mughirah) recited", not you all (plural) recited...
2) The translator did NOT translate the word " 'uoona " meaning "support"
3) The translator interpolated the words " in the Quran" which is not in the Arabic of the hadith which gives the impression in english he was reciting from the Quran.
4) The Prophet was to have said in Arabic "..innahum (Verily they) kaanoo (use to) yusammoona (give designation) bi (by) anbiyaa-ihim ( their prophets) wassaaliheen (and the rightious) qablahum (before them)...[ Verily they use to give designation by their Prophets and the Righteous before them]. " Sister of Aaron" was refered by the Prophet as being a designation. The Arabic word "sammoo" means to give designation by name or title, and not just merely to give a name.
Why did the Christians say that Mughirah recited in support O Sister of Aaron ? In Support of what ?
Mughirah obviously was in debate with the Christians of Najran in which Najran was a Christian city. He used the term "O Sister of Aaron" in support with whatever it was he was engaged in debate about with the Christians. The Christians questioned this term he was using and not the Quran itself as nothing of the context of the Quran where the term is originally used in is ever mention.
According to the evidence here "O Sister of Aaron" was not recited in context of the Quran but only the term alone without its context was used by Mughirah for some other means in his quarrel with them.
So for the Christians to have understood this as an Idiom etc in Arabic would have been merely impossible without its context use in the Quran where it is defined.
The above concludes to the following:
1) "Sister of Aaron" is a status of the mother of Jesus in the context use of Quran
2) The Prophet refered to the term "Sister of Aaron" as "sammoo" or designation in the hadith
3) Both the Quran and hadith confirm the term "Sister of Aaron" as a designated title and status for the Mother of Jesus expressing her purity and lineage
4) Also in the Arabic context of the Quran the word "ukht = sister" has another meaning expressing "sisterhood" which tells us Maryam belonged to the Sisterhood of Aaron whom are known as the daughters of Aaron.
This is what we believe.
Let me see there are all subject to criticism and...? Let me remind you of the question I asked you that brought this up Has the message from the versions of the bible changed?
Sure lets look at one main discripancy in translation between Jews and Christians
The Christians say this is a prophecy of the VIRGIN Mary and her son
Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [1] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [2] will call him Immanuel.
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bib ... howxref=on
This is the Jewish Translation of the same verse but with "young woman" not refering to a woman who is a virgin. According to the Jews this verse was fulfilled in Isaiahs time with the prophetess who bared a child in Chap 8
Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 8
1 And HaShem said unto me: 'Take thee a great tablet, and write upon it in common script: The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth;
2 and I will take unto Me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.'
3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bore a son. Then said HaShem unto me: 'Call his name Maher-shalal-hashbaz.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah7.html
In Judaism Immanuel was the surname of the child Maher-shalal-hashbaz that was born to the prophetess.
We would advise our readers to PLEASE GO BACK TO THE BIBLE and read Isaiah Chapt 7- Chapt 8 in its context
.
Note : No one in the bible ever ADDRESSES Jesus by the name Emmanuel other than the Narator of the Gospel who makes a reference to the Christian alledge prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 to refer to the virgin Mary and her son.
I encourage everybody to paste this text in http://www.cimos.com/index.asp?src=try and translate it from the arabic to english this is what the first part says [They deceived and he deceived to ..] So your god is a deceiver?
The root word comes from makar meaning to cheat/deceive, even this arabic translator knows that allah is a deceiver but yet look at the variations in interpretations: .........Ofcourse our friend has decided to tow the line of sleight of hand hoping no one notices the interpretators are being deceitful as to what the verse implied:
Have a look at his interpretation of that verse:
Quote:
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters.
Like our friend said earlier when the meaning is open to interpretation the correct interpretation "can be obtained from the context", what is the context of this verse? allah is plotting to do the same thing as the unbelievers, to kill them, this sounds like the devil to me.
Amazing. This was suppose to be a response to you original question "Where does the koran explicitly state this?" refering to where does the Quran state that there will be no return of Jesus. Then you came up with the above that has absolutlely nothing to do with Jesus' second return then after the above you revert to the same question again "And where does it state that Jesus is not coming back?"
Verse 3:54 of the Quran has nothing to do with the second return of Jesus' or disproval of it. It seems your objective here was about the translation.
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters.
The Parenthesis are my own words as we knew already what the Jews were plotting, scheming or deceiving to do to the Son of Maryam. Let me remind you that all these words plotting,scheming, and deceiving all have synonymous meanings. But I dont thing this is what you were disputing though I think you were making a grudge about the part that Allah also was makar ~ plotting, scheming, or deceiving.
We already know the intent of the makar of the Jews but what was the intent of Allah's makar ? You jumped to the conclusion that Allahs intent was the same as the Jews but this not what the Quran says:
and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)
* The Jew's makar was to KILL and CRUCIFY him
* Allah's makar was for it to appear to them that they had killed him in which they rejoiced over but yet they had been fooled and knew it not. In all the while they thought they prevailed over the Messiah Allah had been already raised him from the earth.
And where does it state that Jesus is not coming back?
I posted it, when he was raised to Allah he became deceased in Quran 3:55 which is confirmed in Quran 5:116-117 which is on the day of Judgment he speaks of the past when he was among the Jews whereas during that time Allah cause him to decease, then again he appears on the Day of Judgement after the resurrection of all mankind. Use your head, is your reading comprehension that bad you dont know what an inference is ? Lets see 2 + 6 - [ ] = 4 ? If you can figure what [ ] is then you should be able to figure out the verses I posted.
Why dont you use your little handy dandy online translater for these verses of 3:55 and 5:116-117 of the Quran.
Even in his translation of the alledge miracle our friend says this:
Quote:
[23] And indeed We have Created Man (male and female) from an extaction of clay
[23] Then We placed him as a sperm into a thing that sojournes and implants
[ 24:15] Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings and then We made the thing that clings as something that is chewed, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers
Notice the word in bold? now you do not need to be an embryologist to realise an extaction of clay has absolutely nothing to do with embryology but it seems our friend is so certain of a miracle in the koran he is unable to see this.
You are absolutely right. Embryology has nothing to do with people being made from out of clay. I couldnt agree with you anymore. But however, embryology and man being made from clay does have something to do with the EVOLUTION OF MANKIND, unless you beleive you came from a monkey . {Smile}
The verse you so boldly quoted in Arabic :
وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَنَ مِنْ سُلَلَةٍ مِنْ طِينٍ
Walaqad khalaqna al-insana min sulalatin min teenin
[23] And indeed We have Created Man (male and female) from an extaction of clay
The Arabic word "al-insan" translated as "Man" is dual refering to a male and a female as I indicated in my parathensis, and not refering to the whole of Mankind in general. ins is single for man or human being, insan is duality for two human beings, and nas is plural for three or more human beings.
Who were The two human beings " al-insan " that were created from an extraction of clay ?
In Islam this was Adam and his wife whom were both created from and extraction of clay.
Contrary to the Bible, the Quran teaches that it was the soul of Adam's wife that was created from him and not His wife being created from one of his Ribs:
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ اتَّقُواْ رَبَّكُمُ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن نَّفْسٍ وَاحِدَةٍ وَخَلَقَ مِنْهَا زَوْجَهَا وَبَثَّ مِنْهُمَا رِجَالاً كَثِيرًا وَنِسَاء وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ الَّذِي تَسَاءلُونَ بِهِ وَالأَرْحَامَ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلَيْكُمْ رَقِيبًا (3:1)
O Mankind (al-nas) fear you Lord who created you from one single Soul and He created from it (The Soul) its spouse and from those two He produced many Men and Women....
Pay attention to the VERB TENSE in 23:13:
[23] And indeed We have Created Man (male and female) from an extaction of clay
"We have Created" better yet none of the translaters nor my self didnt even translate the whole significance of the arabic " laqad" in "walaqad". Laqad means (la)have (qad)already, So oops we left out "already" cause it wasnt necessary but for people like you who have bad reading comprehension I guess it would be necessary. {Smile}
Ehm, any how let us continue. " walaqad khalaqnaa ~ and We have already created...al-insana ~ the two human beings (Man ie a male and a female)...min sulalatin min teenin ~ from an extraction of clay " This is an act already done and completed.
[ 24:15] Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings and then We made the thing that clings as something that is chewed, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers
Thumma (Then) you said about "(Thumma [Then]): A letter of Atf [an Arabic grammatical classification] indicating sequence [in order] with a pause in time [between the two things in the sequence]" This is agreed. WoOHOo! your learnig some arabic. " with a pause in time " does not tell us how long later before the next sequence starts again.
"then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; " Another ? Hmm. Then the enbryological stages that are mentioned is distinguished from the first Creation of Man ie the two human beings that were created from clay. So the ebyological stages mention is not part of the First creation of man but another production of a human being. {Smile}
Again you should pay more attention to what you read. The Arabic I can understand. And just to let all the people out there know who can read...lol....that the online translater tool that our Wishful Thinker aided us with is limited cause it cannot translate the gender, singularity, duality, and plurality of words.
"Then, when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her We joined her in marriage to thee, in order that there might be no difficulty to the believers in marriage to wives of their adopted sons." Surah 33:37
Here our Wishful Thinker goes on to humilating and assaulting our Prophet with the above. But again he didnt go to the Quran it self to verify this but here merely is copy and pasting from his contemporary Christian web sites against islam. Now lets see, if he was to go back and confirm this he would see they quoted out of context :
[33] Behold! thou (Muhammad) didst say to one (Zaid) who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled.
Now for the readers our profit told Zaid to keep his wife. Now why did Zaid want to divorce his wife ? Will as you know our Wishful Thinker was in a habit of quoting hadith but why did he stop? Cause this is what he would have found:
Bukhari Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 516.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Anas : Zaid bin Haritha came to the Prophet complaining about his wife. The Prophet kept on saying (to him), "Be afraid of Allah and keep your wife." 'Aisha said, "If Allah's Apostle were to conceal anything (of the Quran he would have concealed this Verse." Zainab used to boast before the wives of the Prophet and used to say, "You were given in marriage by your families, while I was married (to the Prophet) by Allah from over seven Heavens." And Thabit recited, "The Verse: 'But (O Muhammad) you did hide in your heart that which Allah was about to make manifest, you did fear the people,' (33.37) was revealed in connection with Zainab and Zaid bin Haritha."
Why was Zaid complaining about his wife ?
Zainab was the the cousin of the Holy Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him) . She was the daughter of Omaimah : the daughter of Abdul Muttalib. Zainab was married to Zaid . She could not adjust with Zaid because he felt that Zainab considerd him as of no match with her . Later on , he divorced her against the will of the Holy Prophet . This incidence was not a bad experience as Allah wanted to break an old custom of the Arabs preventing them from marrying a woman already divorced by the man whom they once adopted as their son . They believed in the same status for the real son as for the adopted son crushing the marital rights of a divorced women . If an adopted son died , they did not marry his widow .To abolish this bad custom it was only the Holy Prophet who had to set an example of carrying out the will of Allah and Allah ordered him to marry Zainab because she did not consider anybody to be her match except her cousin the Holy Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon
http://www.adly.net/zaid.htm
Lets see what some other intelectual men who are none muslims have to say about all this that you keep on having Wishful Thinking syndromes of :
Zainab bint Jahsh
The marriage of Zainab bint Jahsh with the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has been made the target of most hostile, scurrilous and venomous remarks against the Prophet. We shall show how bigotry and malice can stoop down to any depths to sully the honor of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
Before we take up the question of the marriage of Zainab bint Jahsh with the Holy Prophet (pbuh), we first state the facts about the marriage of Zainab with Zaid bin Haritha, after whose divorcing, the Prophet (pbuh) married her.
Zaid bin Haritha was made a slave in early life. He was brought to Mecca and purchased by Khadija who presented him to the Prophet (pbuh). He treated him so nicely and lovingly that when Zaid’s father came to redeem him, he refused to go along with him and preferred to remain with the Prophet, who freed him and adopted him, in the custom of the Arabs then, as his son. Zaid was known as Zain bin Muhammad.
Zainab bint Jahsh was the daughter of Umaymah bint Abdul Muttalib, aunt of the Prophet (pbuh), sister of his father Abdullah b. Abdul Muttalib.
In accordance with the notions of Islam of doing away with the distinctions of caste and colour, of high and low, of free men and slaves, the Prophet (pbuh) thought of marrying Zainab bint Jahsh - his first cousin, with Zaid bin Haritha - his freedman and adopted son. According to a version of Ibn Abbas, cousin of the Prophet, recorded in Tabarani, the Prophet proposed marriage to Zainab. She thought that the Prophet (pbuh) himself was asking her hand in marriage. When, however, she learnt that the Prophet was asking her hand for Zaid bin Haritha, she refused, felt uneasy, and said, ‘I am from Quraish. I don’t like it. I am better than him in lineage." In some other version, she is reported to have said, "O Apostle of Allah, I am from Quraish. I am the daughter of your aunt. I don’t like him for myself." Then the verse of the Qur’an was revealed:
"And it becometh not a believing man and a believing woman that when Allah and His Messenger have decided an affair (for them) that they should (after that) claim any say in their affairs; and who so is rebellious to Allah and His Messenger he verily goeth astray in error manifesto." (Qur’an 33:30)
All the Commentators of the Holy Qur’an are of the unanimous view that this verse was revealed in connection with Zainab’s refusal to marry Zaid bin Haritha. However, when Zainab and her brother heard this verse, they acquiesced and entrusted the matter to the Prophet (pbuh) who solemnized the marriage of Zainab bint Jahsh with Zaid bin Haritha. However, this marriage did not run its smooth course and ended in a divorce. More than one author has thrown light on the reasons for the dissolution of this marriage.
It is recorded in the Tafsir Khazin: Zaid came to the Holy Prophet and said, "I want to divorce Zainab." The Prophet (pbuh) enquired, "What is the matter with you? Do you find anything bad in her?" Zaid replied, "No, Apostle of Allah! I have seen nothing but good in her. But she takes too much airs on her noble lineage and torments me with her tongue." The Prophet said, "Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allah in her case."
But Zaid divorced Zainab. ... Zurqani states that Zaid divorced her because of his dislike of her on account of her taking airs on her high pedigree. ... Baladhuri writes in his Ansab al-Ashraf: Zaid complained to the Prophet (pbuh) and said that Zainab is bad-tempered and asked the Prophet’s permission for divorcing her. But the Prophet said to him, "Keep thy wife to thyself and fear Allah."
On the other hand, it must be stated in defence of Zainab, that in deference to the wishes of the Holy Prophet she had agreed to marry Zaid. Zaid was of swarthy complexion, short statured with a flat nose. Whatever may be the case, the fact remains that there was incompatibility of temperaments between Zaid and Zainab, and the couple could not pull on for long and the marriage ended in divorce of Zainab by Zaid. All the exhortations of the Prophet (pbuh) to Zaid to keep his wife to himself failed in their purpose.
Mirza Abu’l Fazl throws some light on the role of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in this matter in these words: ...But from the moment it was clear that the relation of Zaid and Zainab could not last long, it became a cause for grave anxiety to Mohammed. He had arranged the marriage when the people of Zainab were averse to it, and now he was to be the cause of disgrace to the family. Not long after, his apprehension proved true; Zaid divorced Zeinab.
The position of Mohammed (pbuh) at this juncture may well be imagined. In fact, he was responsible for this ‘unequal’ union in a world divided by color and caste, which had extinguished the spark of human instinct of love and affection; and he certainly owed it to her people who were more than humiliated and disgraced by this divorce of their daughter by a freedman, which must have touched their sense of honor and not a little injured them in the eyes of their people, to undo all by manfully coming forward to accept the hand of Zeinab; and amidst the great rejoicing of her people Mohammed (pbuh) married Zeinab.
Before the Prophet (pbuh) actually married Zainab, he had some apprehensions that since the pagan Arabs considered their adopted sons as their real sons, his idea of marrying Zainab bint Jahsh might not provoke some adverse comments from the common folks. At this juncture Allah revealed verses of the Qur’an whereby he was told not to fear the common folks but to fear Allah alone. He was further commanded as a duty to marry Zainab, wife of his adopted son, so that this age-old pagan custom of considering marriage with the wives of their adopted sons as something unlawful and sacrilegious might be done away with, as Muhammad (pbuh) "is not the father of any male member of the community." And that he was the last Prophet of Allah to undo the pagan custom, which no other person of lesser authority could do. The verses run as under:
"And recall what time thou wast saying unto him (Zaid) on whom Allah had conferred favour and thou hadst conferred favour: ‘Keep thy wife to thyself and fear Allah’; and thou wast concealing in thy mind that which Allah was going to disclose, and thou wast fearing mankind whereas Allah had a better right that Him thou shouldst fear. Then when Zaid had performed his purpose concerning her, We wedded her to thee, so that there should be no blame for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons, when they have performed their purpose concerning them.
No blame there is upon the Prophet in that which Allah hath decreed for him. That hath been Allah’s dispensation with those who have passed away afore - and ordinance of Allah hath been a destiny destined.
Those who preached the message of Allah and feared Him, and feared none save Allah, and Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.
Muhammad is not the father of any of your males, but the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; And Allah of everything is ever the Knower."
(Qur’an 33: 37-40)
The Prophet carried out this directive of Allah by marrying Zainab bint Jahsh. It did not provoke much adverse comments by the people at large. This has, however, been the subject of most hostile, malicious and scurrilous comments by a large majority of the Orientalists on the basis of a ‘cock and bull’ story fabricated by an evil-minded person. Those who are eager to know who the person was and what story he narrated may find it recorded in the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa’d coming from the narration of his teacher, Muhammad b. Umar al-Waqidi.
About Muhammad bin Umar al-Waqidi, however, we quote the views of various reputable scholars, critics and connoisseurs of Hadith in this respect:
Imam Shafi’i, one of the most penetrating brains of Islam, a great jurist and versatile scholar said, "All the books of Waqidi are lies." At another place he said, "There were seven persons in Medina who used to fabricate ‘chain of narrators’, Waqidi was one of them."
Ibn Madni, teacher of Imam Bukhari, said: Waqidi has got 20,000 traditions for which there is no basis or authority.
Yahya bin Mueen said: Waqidi has falsely imputed some 20,000 traditions to the Apostle of Allah.
Imam Bukhari said: He is discarded in narration of Hadith. Ahmed b.Hanbal, Ibn Mubarak, Ibn Numeer and Isma’il bin Zakariya have discarded him. He said at another place: Ahmed bin Hanbal called him a liar.
Imam Nasa’i, author of one of the Sihah Sittah (Six canonical books) said: It is considered among the ‘weak’ narrators who are well known for telling lies in respect of the Apostle of Allah. And they are four: Waqidi in Medina, Muqatil in Khorasan, Muhammad bin Saeed, the ‘hanged one’ in Syria and named the fourth also.
Abu Da’ud, compiler of one of the Sihah Sittah, said: I do not write traditions of Waqidi nor do I narrate on his authority. I am convinced that he forged traditions.
Ishaq b. Rahweh said: I am of the view that he used to concoct traditions.
Abu Zar’a al-Razi, Abu Bashar al-Dulabi and Uqailee said: He is discarded in traditions.
Abu Hatim said: He used to concoct traditions.
Imam Nuwawwi said: All have agreed that Waqidi is ‘weak’ in reporting traditions.
Dhahabi said: All are unanimous on the unreliability of Waqidi.
Ibn Khallikan said: The traditions received from Waqidi are considered to be of ‘weak’ authority and doubts have been expressed on the subject of his veracity and reliability.
Ibn Sayyid an-Nas says in his Uyun al-athar that people have made much criticism about him. He is considered ‘weak’ in reporting traditions and allegations of concocting Ahadith on his part have been levelled against him.
Waqidi is a favorite with the Orientalists since they can find a lot of fabricated and concocted material in his reports. They always find excuses for praising him. But sometimes they are also compelled to admit the truth about him i.e. his unreliability.
B.H. Stern says about his not laying much stress on the criticism of Isnad: As far as criticism of the isnad is concerned, al-Waqidi was not regarded with favour by the orthodox theologians and scholars of his period and later times; such people as Ibn Hanbal, al-Bukhari, Ibn Mu’in and Ibn Mubarak disapproved of him ...It seems his fault lay in the fact that he was more interested in the matn rather than the isnad.
Sir William Muir states: Neither he (i.e. Waqidi) nor any other writers of the time was addicted to the use of reason and argument. The sole ambition of each was to collect the largest number of traditions and to transmit them with exactness.....Waqidi seems to have taken as few traditions as possible from the Sunna.....His great learning enabled him to assign ten different authorities for a single tradition, with as many varying texts of the same; and to supply many interesting anecdotes which had escaped Ibn Ishaq and his other predecessors.
In his article on Waqidi, in the Encyclopaedia of Islam, Horovitz says: Muslim scholars reject him for Hadith proper.
In his book Master Historians, Angus Butterworth castigates Gibbon for his use of Waqidi’s unreliable material in these words: For the history of Mohammed he, in common with other contemporaries took without question the dubious material to be found in the romances of al-Waqidi.
Even Sprenger, who is very hostile to the Prophet, admits the unreliability of al-Waqidi in these words: According to the canons of traditional criticism Wackidi is reckoned untrustworthy, partly because he was uncritical in the choice of his authorities and not himself invariably true.
Sir William Muir’s remarks that Waqidi supplied interesting anecdotes left by Ibn Ishaq and others are a pointer in the direction that such ‘interesting anecdotes’ must have been coined by Waqidi himself, otherwise there is no reason why Ibn Ishaq and others should have omitted to mention anything important pertaining to the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
The second such person in the chain of narrators, was Abdullah bin A’amar al-Aslami, about whom the said Muslim scholars expressed similar remarks as in case of al-Waqidi. We , therefore, need not repeat all that.
We need also not to say anything about Muhammad b. Yahya b. Habban who, though considered reliable and who was the first person, said to have narrated the story, but he died more than a century after the death of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If at all Muhammad b. Yahya b. Habban had got anything to do with this tradition, how did he come to know about this story after the lapse of a century? The story does not reach any Companion of the Prophet (pbuh) nor any member of his household.
On the face of it, it is a spurious piece of lie fabricated just to defame the Holy Prophet (pbuh). Those who have happened to read this story in any source, must always keep in mind that Ummul Mo’mineen Zainab bint Jahsh was 38 years old at the time she got married to the Prophet. She was his first cousin. The Prophet (pbuh) had seen her from the stage of a crawling babe to a full grown woman. If he was at all interested in her and her beauty, he could have married her when young and virgin. Now when she had passed all these stages this talk of her beauty pouring in the Prophet’s family, causing anguish of heart to the other ladies, is a blatant lie, a sheer concoction of some dirty mind.
And it has also to be remembered that it was the Prophet (pbuh) himself who had arranged her marriage with Zaid b. Haritha. For further refutation of the baseless criticism of the Holy Prophet we can do no better than quote the considered views of some Western scholars who are not carried off by blind prejudice in this matter:
R. Bosworth Smith writes in his work Mohammed and Mohammedanism:
His (i.e. the Prophet) marriage with Zainab, the wife of his freedman and adopted son, after her divorce from him, bears on the face of it a worse complexion; but I am satisfied, after a close examination of the circumstances of the case, that it does not bear the interpretation usually placed upon it by Christians. It raised an outcry among the Arabs of the Ignorance, not because they suspected an intrigue on the Prophet’s part to secure a divorce; but because they looked upon an adopted son as though he were a real son, and considered therefore that the marriage fell within the prohibited degree. This restriction, which Muhammad, for whatever cause, considered to be an arbitrary one, he abolished by this marriage, not for his own benefit only but for that of the Arabs at large ...much that was comparatively innocent has been made to wear the appearance of deep guilt.
In the footnote Bosworth Smith writes:
It should be remembered, however, that most of Muhammad’s marriages may be explained, at least, as much by his pity for the forlorn condition of the person concerned, as by other motives. They were almost all of them with widows who were not remarkable either for their beauty or their wealth, but quite the reverse. May not this fact, and his undoubted faithfulness to Khadija till her dying day, and till he was fifty years of age, give an additional ground to hope that calumny or misconception has been at work in the story of Zainab? For example, Zainab was the Prophet’s cousin, and there was nothing to prevent his having married her himself when both he and she were younger, instead of giving her in marriage to his freedman …Muhammad, by his subsequent marriage with her removed a restriction which he thought [in fact, ordained by Allah] unnecessary; and showed that at all events he saw nothing degrading in a marriage connection with a freedman. Anyhow it is certain, if he [Zaid] had suspected, as Christians have done, anything in the nature of an intrigue on his part to alienate his wife’s affection from him, he could not have served him as he did even to the day of his death with all the loyalty and devotion of a zealous disciple.
As regards the promulgation of Sura 33:37-40 which, it is contended by the Orientalists, the Prophet (pbuh) produced to suit his purpose, the tragedy of thinking of these critics is that they do not consider Muhammad as a Prophet of God, and also do not accept the position that the Prophet could get revelations from the God. They consider themselves as the favorites of heaven and that Divine revelation is the sole prerogative of Jews and Christians, the Chosen of the Lord, to the entire exclusion of the rest of humanity!
R.Bosworth Smith gives a very cogent rejoinder to these critics who contend that the Prophet (pbuh) produced this sura for his ends. He writes: The promulgation of this Sura, whatever it proves about Muhammad (pbuh) seems to me to prove not his conscious insincerity, but the reverse; he had already attained this end, why then blazon his shame if shame he felt it to be? Why forge the name of God? Why lay himself open to the crushing retort which his enemies would at once bring against him? ...Surely a single act of conscious imposture in the matter of the Kuran would have sapped all his strength ...It would have made such a speech as that wherein, at the very close of his life, Samuel-like he boldly challenged all Musulmans to mention aught against that they had against him, impossible.
Dr. Leitner, too, refutes the baseless allegations made in the matter of Prophet’s marriage with Zainab. He writes: The story of the marriage of the Prophet with Zainab, the divorced wife of his freedman and adopted son, Zaid, has also, given rise to misconception. It may be premised that the heathen Arabs considered it wrong to marry the divorced wife of an adopted son, although they had no objection to marry the wives (excluding their own mother) of a deceased father, just as some people nowadays might not mind breaking the Decalogue who would on no account ‘whistle on a Sunday’.
Mohammed excluded all this ‘nonsense’ by saying that an adopted child was not a real child; and this being so, it could not be supposed to be within the prohibited degree. To affirm this truth and not to justify a new marriage, the Prophet received a revelation which has been misconstrued as a sanction to a wrongful act.
Rev. W. Montgomery Watt writes: The most natural explanation of the Qur’nic passages is to suppose that there was something objectionable about the equating of adoptive sons with real ones, and that it was desirable that there should be a complete break with the past in this respect. The Qur’an implies that Muhammad (pbuh) had originally been unwilling to marry Zainab and afraid of public opinion, but had come to acknowledge the marriage as a duty imposed on him by God; his marriage demonstrated to the believers that there was no blame in marrying the divorced wife of an adoptive son. The criticism of Muhammad (pbuh), then, was based on a pre-Islamic idea that was rejected by Islam, and one aim of Muhammad (pbuh) in contracting the marriage was to break the hold of the old idea over men’s conduct.
For further refutation of the charge we reproduce here the views of various Western scholars who have rebutted the charge in their own way.
The famous scholar, Thomas Carlyle writes: Mahomet himself, after all that can be said about him, was not a sensual man. We shall err widely if we consider this man as common voluptuary, intent mainly on base enjoyments, - nay on enjoyment of any kind. His household was of the frugalest; his common diet barley-bread and water; sometimes for months there was not a fire once lighted on his hearth. They record with just pride that he would mend his own shoes, patch up his own cloak. A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; something better in him than hunger of any sort, or these wild Arab men fighting, jostling three and twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, would not have reverenced him so! ...No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of his clouting.
J.W.H. Stobart writes in his work Muhammad and His Power: His domestic conduct was that of a faithful and affectionate husband, whilst his reserved, mediative, and sober manners in public secured him the love and praise of his fellow townsmen. It is impossible to suppose, if his conduct and character had been licentious and hypocritical, that the reputation which he established and maintained would have been as high and faultless as it was.
Lord Headley, the Muslim convert, wrote in his book The Three Great Prophets of the World: He was deeply attached to Ayesha and the other wives he married were the widows of his friends who had fallen n fighting his defensive engagements. The position of ‘widow’ has always been a sad one in the East and it is not difficult to imagine that the tender heart of Muhammad (pbuh) went out to those defenceless ones whose protectors had given their lives in his glorious cause, and he did the best for them by letting them have the shelter of his home. As actual wives he had no need of them but as protector of the friendless he did the right thing and secured the blessings of many whose life would otherwise have been cheerless and unhappy.
Will Durant, who had attacked the Prophet, admits: Some of his marriages were acts of kindness to the destitute widows of his followers and friends. ...Some were diplomatic marriages ...Some may have been due to a perpetually frustrated hope for a son...
John Davenport observes in his work An Apology for Mohammed and the Kuran: It should be remembered that he lived from the age of five-and-twenty to that of fifty years satisfied with one wife; that until she died at the age of sixty-three he took no other, and that left him without male issue; and it may then be asked, ‘is it likely that a very sensual man, should be contented for five-and-twenty years with one wife, she being fifteen years older than himself; and is it not far more probable that Mohammad (pbuh) took the many wives he did during the last thirteen years of his life chiefly from a desire of having male issue?
Writing in his work Studies in a Mosque, Stanley Lane-Poole refutes the charge in these words: The simple austerity of his life, to the very last, his hard mat for sleeping on, his plain food, his self-imposed menial work, point him as an ascetic rather than a voluptuary in most senses of the word ...A great deal too much has been said about his wives. It is a melancholy spectacle to see professedly Christian biographers gloating over the stories and fables of Mohammed’s domestic relations like the writers and readers of ‘society’ journals ...Be it remembered that, within his unlimited power, he need not have restricted himself to a number insignificant compared with the harems of some of his successors, that he never divorced one of his wives, that all of them save one were widows ...Several of these marriages must have been entered into from the feeling that those women whose husbands had fallen in battle for the faith, and who had been left unprotected, had a claim upon the generosity of him who prompted the fight. Other marriages were contracted from motives of policy, in order to conciliate the heads of rival factions.
After all, the overwhelming argument is his fidelity to his first wife ...he married Khadija, who was fifteen years older than himself, with all the added age that women gain as quickly in the East. For five-and-twenty years Mohammad (pbuh) remained faithful to his elderly wife, and when she was sixty-five, and they might have celebrated their ‘silver wedding’, he was as devoted to her as when first he married her. During all these years there was never a breath of scandal. Thus far Mohammed’s life will bear microscopic scrutiny …Then Khadija died; and he married many women afterwards ...he never forgot his old wife, and loved her best to the end, when I was poor she enriched me, when they called me a liar she alone believed in me, when all the world was against me she alone remained true. This loving, tender memory of an old wife, laid in the grave belongs only to a noble nature; it is not to be looked for in a voluptuary.
Prof. Vaglieri has the following to say: Enemies of Islam have insisted in depicting Muhammad as a sensual individual and a dissolute man, trying to find in his marriages evidence of a weak character not consistent with his mission. They refuse to take into consideration the fact that during those years of his life when by nature the sexual urge is strongest, although he lived in a society like that of the Arabs, where the institution of marriage was almost non-existent, where polygamy was the rule, and where divorce was very easy indeed, he was married to one woman alone, Khadija, who was much older than himself, and that for twenty-five years he was her faithful, loving husband. Only when she died and when he was already more than fifty years old did he marry again and more than once. Each of these marriages had a social and political reason, for he wanted through the women he married to honour pious women, or to establish marriage relations with other clans and tribes for the purpose of opening the way for the propagation of Islam. With the sole exception of A’isha, he married women who were neither virgins, nor young nor beautiful.
http://www.jamaat.org/islam/unjust.html
Lets see what else you had to say.
O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity. sura 33:53
When Hafsa caught Mohammed, in her bed, making love to his concubine Mariya (after telling her that her father wanted to see her so she would leave the house), Mohammed tried to please angry Hafsa by promising her that he will stay away from Mariya. At this point Allah intervenes in Mohammed's behalf: -
"O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives ? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Surah 66:1 Forgiving of what? Merciful of what?
Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise. sura 66:2
Notice how our wishful thinker does LEEP FROG with the Chapters in the Quran as to a particular event that have nothing to do with each other. So he adds more of his wishful thinking. Why doesnt he run to hadith about these verses like he was doing in the begining. Maybe if he did this is what he would have founded.
About Surah 33:53
Muslim Book 008, Hadith Number 3328.
------------------------------
Chapter : Excellence of emancipating a slave-girl and then marrying her.
Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reported: I was sitting behind Abu Talha on the Day of Khaibar and my feet touched the foot of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and we came (to the people of Khaibar) when the sun had risen and they had driven out their cattle, and had themselves come out with their axes, large baskets and hatchets, and they said: (Here come) Muhammad and the army. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Khaibar is ruined. Verily when we get down in the valley of a people, evil is the morning of the warned ones (al-Qur'an, xxxvii. 177). Allah, the Majestic and the Glorious, defeated them (the inhabitants of Khaibar), and there fell to the lot of Dihya a beautiful girl, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) got her in exchange of seven heads, and then entrusted her to Umm Sulaim so that she might embellish her and prepare her (for marriage) with him. He (the narrator) said: He had been under the impression that he had said that so that she might spend her period of 'Iddah in her (Umm Sulaim's) house. (The woman) was Safiyya daughter of Huyayy. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) arranged the wedding feast consisting of dates, cheese, and refined butter, and pits were dug and tiers were set in them dining cloths, and there was brought cheese and refined butter, and these were placed there. And the people ate to their fill, and they said: We do not know whether he (the Holy Prophet) had married her (as a free woman), or as a slave woman. They said: If he (the Holy Prophet) would make her wear the veil, then she would be a (free married) woman, and if he would not make her wear the veil, then she should be a slave woman. When he intended to ride, he made her wear the veil and she sat on the hind part of the camel; so they came to know that he had married her. As they approached Medina, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) drove (his ride) quickly and so we did. 'Adba' (the name of Allah's Apostle's camel) stumbled and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) fell down and she (Radrat Safiyya: also fell down. He (the Holy Prophet) stood up and covered her; the woman looked towards her and said: May Allah keep away the Jewess! He (the narrator) said: I said: Aba Hamza, did Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) really fall down? He said: Yes, by Allah, he in fact fell down. Anas said: I also saw the wedding feast of Zainab, and he (the Holy Prophet) served bread and meat to the people, and made them eat to their heart's content, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent me to call people, and as he was free (from the ceremony) he stood up and I followed him. Two persons were left and they were busy in talking and did not get out (of the apartment). He (the Holy Prophet) then proceeded towards (the apartments of) his wives. He greeted with as-Salamu 'alaikum to every one of them and said: Members of the household, how are you? They said: Messenger of Allah, we are in good state 'How do you find your family? He would say: In good state. When he was free from (this work of exchanging greetings) he came back, and I also came back along with him. And as he reached the door, (he found) that the two men were still busy in talking. And when they saw him having returned, they stood up and went out; and by Allah! I do not know whether I had informed him, or there was a revelation to him (to the affect) that they had gone. He (the Holy Prophet) then came back and I also returned along with him, and as he put his step on the threshold of his door he hung a curtain between me and him, and (it was on this occasion) that Allah revealed this verse: ("O you who believe), do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to 'you" (xxxiii. 53).
About Surah 66: 1-4
Muslim Book 009, Hadith Number 3496-3497.
------------------------------
Chapter : Atonement is essential for one who made his wife unlawful for himself without the intention of divorce.
'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrated that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) used to spend time with Zainab daughter of Jahsh and drank honey at her house. She ('Aisha further) said: I and Hafsa agreed that one whom Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) would visit first should say: I notice that you have an odour of the Maghafir (gum of mimosa). He (the Holy Prophet) visited one of them and she said to him like this, whereupon he said: I have taken honey in the house of Zainab bint Jabsh and I will never do it again. It was at this (that the following verse was revealed): Why do you hold to be forbidden what Allah has made lawful for you... (up to). If you both ('Aisha and Hafsa) turn to Allah" up to: "And when the Holy Prophet confided an information to one of his wives" (lxvi. 3). This refers to his saying: But I have taken honey.
'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) liked sweet (dish) and honey. After saying the afternoon prayer he used to visit his wives going close to them. So he went to Hafsa and stayed with her more than what was his usual stay. I ('Aisha) asked about that. It was said to me: A woman of her family had sent her a small vessel of honey as a gift, and she gave to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) from that a drink. I said: By Allah, we would also contrive a device for him. I mentioned that to Sauda, and said: When he (Allah's Apostle) would visit you and draw close to you, say to him: Allah's Messenger, have you taken maghafir? And he would say to you: No. Then say to him: What is this odour? And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) felt it very much that unpleasant odour should emit from him. So he would say to you: Hafsa has given me a drink of honey. Then you should say to him: The honey-bees might have sucked 'Urfut, and I would also say the same to him and. Safiyya, you should also say this. So when he (the Holy Prophet) came to Sauda, she said: By Him besides whom there is no god, it was under compulsion that I had decided to state that which you told me when he would be at a little distance at the door. So when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came near, she said: Messenger of Allah, did you eat Maghafir? He said: No. She (again) said: Then what is this odour? He said: Hafsa gave me honey to drink. She said: The honey-bee might have sucked 'Urfut. When he came to me I told him like this. He then visited Safiyya and she also said to him like this. When he (again) visited Hafsa, she said: Messenger of Allah, should I not give you that (drink)? He said: I do not need that. Sauda said: Hallowed be Allah, by Him we have (contrived) to make that (honey) unlawful for him. I said to her: Keep quiet. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of 'Urwa with the same chain of transmitters.
Its your misunderstand of those verses which you never went back to investigate and made up you on WISHFUL THINKING as you went along. You are doing nothing but following what some Christian web site had said and you take it as truth without out investigating it your self.
Since you know what I am going to pull out, then maybe you should have prepared your answer in anticipation:
It was revealed in the fourth year he was in medina, between 625-626 AD (http://isgkc.org/EnglishQuran/sura4.htm). He deid in 632-633 AD 7 years later. Aisha was with him for ten years, in other words typical of Mohammed by the time the koran said marry women (which our friend has conveniently taken to mean women who have passed the age of puberty, and there are many different schools of thought on this, his view is a very small minority) Mohammed was already with a pre pubescent girl, a case of one rule for me and another rule for my followers the mantra of all cults.
Correct it was revealed between 625-626 making it also between the 3-4 Hijra of the muslim calendar. I posted this up for you in Arabic why dont you go copy and paste it and use your little Online Translator tool and see what it gives you.{Smile}
Being that Surah Al-nisaa ( The Women) was revealed after Aisha had gotten married to him in 623-624 (1-2 Hijra) he would have had to divorce her to comply with the command in the Quran but he didnt. But why didnt he divorce her ?
As we showed from before which you agreed the Hadith is false but here now you are still using it....lol
Anyhow there has to be something wrong here cause Muhammad didnt divorce her to comply with the Quran. Do your home work. What year was Aisha born in ? She was born in 613-614 AD corresponding to the Islamic calendar 8-9 years before the Hijra. Remember she didnt marry Muhammad until 623-624 (1-2 Hijrah) which would make her about 10 years old when he married her, and not 6, When the prophet was taken away Aisha was 19-20 in 632-633 [and not 15-16 if she married him at 6] as all the sources agree to.
If she was 9-10 as the dates show from the time of her birth, the time of her marriage, and the time when she became widowed, she had already reached puberty in which she was a woman. Whereas from then the Surah al-nisaa was revealed about tow years later making her 11-12 years of age. Go do that math like I told you.
| View Parent Message View dfilename Return Home |