Christian/Muslim ThreadsJesus and the pagan mythsFinally H2O, the coffe is cold, but I guess you needed time to look up websites.
But, was that it? Is that all you had to present? You simply presented a list of assumptions from a modern day writer, that is not what I asked for.
I am a little surprised, but I did not expect anything better.
First of all, you posted the exact details which I had expected.
Secondly, I know and I have studied these religious figures and resmeblences which you presented.
Thirdly, you did in no way, meet the challenge, neither did you prove anything except contradicting your own religion.
The challenge I presented to you or any Muslim on this forum, was to post the actual sources for these assumptions, in other words, I am expecting you to post the actual sources of Mithra or Krishna to prove your point. I have no interest in a modern writers speculation.
I know about Acharya and his ideas, his theoris do not build on evidences, but speculations, otherwise prove me wrong and present the evidences.
Fourthly, I wished you had focused on one of these figures at the time.
Before I start, I think it is vital to notify some significant elements in your post. I am glad you avoided Muslim speculators on the topic, and thus we get a full picture of the argument.
The funny thing is that Christianity is supposed to have borrowed a range of elements from Mithra, Krishna, Zoroaster, etc. Some of these elements consisted of Jesus being born by virgin, Jesus performing miracles (particularly restoring the blind and raising the dead), Jesus promising immortality to his followers, Jesus being the Messiah.
The problem the Muslim is facing is virtually that these so called borrowed elements are clearly found in the religion of Islam as well.
H2O wrote:
--Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.
--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cavether was
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
-- “Messiah.”
--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
Lets take this bit by bit:
Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Zoroaster, Attis and Dionysus were all born by a virgin mother. In other words the pregnancy and the birth was literally a miracle.
These scholars H2O are refering to attempt to establish a link between these religious figures and the description of Mary's virgin birth found in Matthew 1 and Luke 1.
It is a fact however, when you compare the description in the Gospel of Luke, we have a clear resemblence to the description found in the Quran.
In Sura 19 we read:
16 And mention in the Book, Mary, how she withdrew from her people to an eastern place and she took a veil apart from them;
17 We sent to her Our Spirit (Gabriel) in the resemblance of a perfect human.
18 (And when she saw him) she said: 'I take refuge in the Merciful from you! If you are fearful.'
19 'I am the Messenger of your Lord,' he replied, 'and have come to give you a pure boy.'
20 'How shall I bear a son,' she answered, 'when I am not touched by a human and not unchaste?'
21 “Even so” he replied, “as such your Lord has said: ’Easy it is for Me. And We shall make him a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us. It is a matter decreed.’”
In Sura 21 we read:
91 And she (Mary) who guarded her virginity. We breathed into her of Our spirit (Gabriel), and made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
In Sura 66 we read:
12 And, Mary, 'Imran's daughter, who guarded her chastity so We breathed into her of Our Spirit (Gabriel); and she put her trust in the Words of her Lord and His Books, and was among the devout.
In Sura 3 we read:
45 When the angels said: 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word (Be) from Him, whose name is Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary. He shall be honored in this world and in the Everlasting Life - and he shall be among those who are close.
46 He shall speak to people in his cradle and when he is aged, and shall be among the righteous.'
47 'Lord,' she said, 'how can I bear a child when no human being has touched me?' He replied: 'Such is the Will of Allah. He creates whom He will. When He decrees a thing, He only says: "Be," and it is.
Now you have a problem H2O. If Christianity borrowed the virgin birth from earlier and contemporary religions, how do you explain that the virgin birth is found in the Quran as well? What a downfall!
According to H2O, modern writers are probably right that:
It was the Gnostic art that reproduced the Hathor-Meri and Horus of Egypt as the Virgin
and child-Christ of Rome . . . You poor idiotai, said the Gnostics [to the early Christians],
you have mistaken the mysteries of old for modern history, and accepted literally all that
was only meant mystically.
In that case why is the virgin birth found in the Quran and secondly, why is it so physical.
Or how about the miracles of Jesus? According to H2O, Christianity borrowed the concept of Jesus the miracle maker, from these particular religions.
H2O wrote:
--Dionysus was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--Horus... performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Krishna... worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
In reply to this Sura 3 says:
49 to be a Messenger to the Children of Israel, (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. From clay, I will create for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and by the permission of Allah, it shall be a bird. I shall heal the blind, and the leper, and raise the dead to life by the permission of Allah
In words, according to H2O, Christ never performed miracles they simply ascribed these elements to him as they copied them from Krishna, Horus, Zoraster and Mithra. I wonder if H2O really is a Muslim after all.
And there is more:
According to H20 Jesus was even entitled Messiah because Mithra was entitled Messiah. Then why is Jesus referred to as Messiah by the Quran, is this again an example of repeated copy: the Christians copying the title Messiah from Mithra and the Muslims adding the idea to their own book.
Secondly, according to H20 Christianity is wrong, since Mithra promised his followers immortality???????? Exactly what is your point here, are you saying that those who follow Islam will have no immortality?
Because if you believe in immortality in the life herafter, remember that the idea originally was copied by the Christians from Mithra and later added to Islam by the Muslims.
All you have proven so far (that is if these assumptions are true), is that Christianity is a copy of ancient religions, however, as Islam emerged they simply copied the same elements.
Shall we start with the first figure? How about Mithra, the list of resmeblences to Jesus were:
--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.”
Now comes the original challenge, what I asked for in my first post, can you refer to the actual historical or religious manuscripts of Mithra to prove your point?
E.g where does it say that Mithra had 12 disciples? That he was born by a virgin? That he sacrificed himself for world peace? That he was laid in a tomb and rose three days after? That the blood from his sacrifice saves the world? Etc??????????????.
Remember I know these theories, and they are nothing but pure speculation, however, I will ask you to present the actual evidences from Mithras scriptures or original evidences, not the assumption or speculation of a modern day writer.
I will make another cup of coffe, and this time come before it gets cold.
Be blessed
Kai
| View Parent Message View dfilename Return Home |