Theres just one problem, tell us H2O how the koran was collated?
If Zaid or Uthman only required an oral transmission
why didn't they just go to a hafeez or two and get them to recite while they write down why did they bother to collect the leaves, barks, animal skin
"the quran was written upon"?
bukhari 6 201 (Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:... So I started locating [What does locate mean in relation to the context H2O?]the Qur'anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two verses of Surah at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else...
The answer was right up under your nose. As usual you have a bad habit of editing hadeeth in quote for your pathetic criticism. Doesnt look like Zaid was fully dependant upon the written material he also depended on ahafeez.
Do you see the bit I have highlighted in large bold font?
If these ahafeez had the koran from end to end, why would Zaid say he couldn't find those particular verses with anybody else but this one man?
Would you happen to tell us just how many of this phantom ahafeez existed pre and post the battle of Yamanah.
...collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:
'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty... (till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.
The rising death of the Qurraa'a of the Quran triggered the muslims to transcribe the Quran. It is obvious the Qurraa'a were more important than the written portions of the Quran that were with them and were of lease importance as to their preservation.
How is it obvious giving your above highlighted source?
Liberate wrote:What does locate mean in relation to the context H2O?
فتتبعت القرآن أجمعه > fatatabb3tu does not mean "So I started locating".
fatatabb3tu al-qur'aana ajma'uhu means "So I succeeded" or "and then I succeeded collecting the entire Quran".
Sorry, my source for accurate dependence is in Arabic not English. I have no dependence on english Islamic sources.
I believe we have already been through this before if you are going to start reinterpreting your religion you need to show us your arabic scholar qualifications to entitle you to this
again I ask you H2O where are your arabic scholar qualifications to dismiss what other scholars have to say?
Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran
What on earth do you think he was going to say, "sorry Uthmann/Abu Bakr I couldn't collect the entire koran allah has failed" alhamduillah?
. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ?
This is the type of logical fallacies you find yourself forced into; making an argument out of silence to deny what is blatantly obvious now Zaid is what he never said he was? I realise this was the argument of the Shia fellow before he left, I find it a little odd you are now quoting from shia websites and making shia arguments, has the h2O one man koranic re-interpreter translator, and hadith rejecter made himself another niche? after telling us you do not go to the masjids of the shias?
Liberate wrote:It looks like H2O has been continuing in his usual vein of making it up as he goes along, first he tells us he became a muslim because of the prediction of saudi oil in sura 9:28 (1) when showed that said verse has nothing of the sort he abandons the thread and hopes nobody notices that the basis of his faith is hanging by a thread
(1) Nope. I said it was my final confirmation :
Omega I havent forgot about this verse. As a matter of fact this was the verse I used to test the Quran with as final confirmation before becoming a Haneef. Now lets put it to the test.
and the above means what you became a haneef because of the prediction of saudi oil in sura 9:28? yes or no?
Why didnt you post this.
So in my case, not speaking for no other muslim but my self and those whom may agree with me, how does Muhammad qualify as a Prophet of اللّــه G-D that satisfies me ?
it's a little bit too late to wriggle out of the hole you have dug yourself in, the sura 9:28 prediction of saudi oil is the reason you gave to us as to why you became a muslim what you are quoting below is what you think qualifies Mohammed as a prophet and you also told us you would renounce islam if an emryologist showed you the 'detailed' "
thing that is chewed, thing that clings" accurate description of foetal development is in error when it was shown to you to be nothing short of laughable a prediction of embryological development you abandoned the thread too.
1) The logical consistancy of the Quran.
You mean to you your religion to me mine and fight them who do not believe in islam even if they be the people of the book lie in wait for the pagans beleaguer them smite at their neck kill them until they pay the jizyah in willing submission...because it is now to me my religion to you mine too.
2) The rational and challenge it gives
The rationale of you are going to hell and have been made fuel for hell because... because allah is merciful? You mean make a sura like it, and the undeclared fatwa on anybody who dares to confront the challenge? or confronts islam for that matter or maybe it is the rationale of you H2O applauding the murder of Theo Van Gogh because he confronted your religion, if this is the rationale of the so called 'peaceful' muslims in the west I dread to think what the fundamentalist will do if they get power in Europe or America.
3) The wisdom and reasoning it applies
You mean don't raise your voice above that of the prophet and don't marry his wives after he dies because
"such behaviour annoys the prophet and he is too shy to tell you but allah is not shy" to be repeated in masjids for all time because this is the final revelation for all mankind relevant to mankind for all eternity even though said Mohammed has been dead for 1400yrs.
4) Its natural aspects it delivers that conforms with nature it self
Ah yes the clouds coming
"willingly or unwillingly"
5)The obedience it asks toward اللّــه with reverence and love.
You mean give 5% of booty (captured married women too) to the prophet because all the other prophets behaved like this and raped captured and married women and given the license to commit incest wether they be their adopted son's wives or not.
6) How to live in submission to اللّــه with balance in life
Washing your ankles and plucking your nasal hairs will get you into a wine and eternal fornication paradise with 70 'chained' women to a bed, I have to wonder in amazement that any rational individual is buying this stupidity.
7) How to treat others as you would want to be treated by another
If I invite you to a meal, don't talk to me eat and get out quickly? why did I invite you in the first place?
How would a woman feel reading that she is a tilth to be approached whenever and however the husband feels like it, and if she refuses to give her husband sex the angels will send her curses till the morning.
Its message is direct, blunt, and to the point
Yes it is so when it says fight the unbelievers even if they be the people of the book what do you say H2O? do you tell us this is being taken out of context in direct conflict with your al-azhar mentors? You know what you will be considered as if the 90%+ of muslims in the rest of the islamic world find out that this is what you preach?
9) The belief in اللّــه oneness and the uniqueness of his divinity and the exalted manner of His sublime majesty
And the point? the christians worship three gods? inclusive of Mary?
10) The belief in the prophets adn that اللّــه sent prophets to all nations of people
Where are the 120,000 prophets that have been sent throughout the world H2O? where is the record of them preaching the oneness of allah and coming with their revealed books? How can civilization lost 120,000 prophets preaching the same thing? when myths and tales of Noah and his flood can be found throughout civilisations the world over (From just 8 individuals) yet 120,000 people cannot be found except for a handful of plagiarised biblical prophets.
11) The belief in angels, scriptures, the life after death, hell, paradise, judgement day, and the resurrection.
Plagiarism is the highest compliment you should be thanking the zoroastrians too for their bridge and houris for your eternal flowing wine and hedonism.
Thereon after we went into the debate of what that verse is or is not. For me it is a prophecy that the Arab muslims of that region would be enriched
Then you still believe sura 9:28 is a prophecy of Saudi oil?
. You argued about what ibn Katheer stated,
I didn't argue about what he stated what he stated was mainstream islamic belief from the early scholars, he is a respected islamic scholar and you are?
We do not consider them (Scholars) to be infalible in their knowledge, they are subject to error just like any other human being.
Here we go again with that 'we' again, do you consider yourself plural in majesty?
So scholars are subject to error but somehow you are not?
The disagrement and its inconsistancy with the assertion of 9:28.
I have a right to agree or disagree with a scholar unless I can produce proof. This is an Islam rule
And where is this rule?
Are you a scholar?
Where are your arabic scholar qualifications?
Proof:
(1) Muslims did not become
ghaniy from any Jizyah as alluded to cause at the time when 9:28 was revealed the Jews were already exiled from the land. So there was no Jizyah to collect. The Christians of Nasran and of the region were extinct. No Jizyah to collect from them also.
(2) The wars they fought and triumphed in with a minority fo pagan tribes after 9:28 was revealed only brought them temporary sustenance from the booty they collected that lasted them a short period of time which does not constitute as being "
ghaniy" or to be rich, wealthy. Thus was no different form all the booty they collected before 9:28 was revealed in which their condition was still expressed as being poor.
(3) After the muslims conquered all of Arabia and after pursuing the Byzantine forces back from the Hijaz, they entered al-Quds in which documentation from christians who witness them as they entered in to Jerusalem say in ridicule:
Steven Runciman writes in his History of the Crusades: “… the Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem, riding upon a white camel.
He was dressed in worn, filthy robes and the army that followed him was rough and unkempt; but its discipline was perfect. At his side was Patriarch Sophronius, as chief Magistrate of the surrendered city. Omar rode straight to the site of the …..
(Al Aqsa Mosque) whence his friend Mohammad (peace be upon him) had ascended into Heaven.
http://www.sevenverses.com/What%20is%20 ... uslims.htm
Does that sound like a rich and wealthy people to you that enterd Jerusalem ?Umar was the Khaleefah looking like that ? Doesnt sound like a rich ruler to me.
This event happened 7 years after the Prophet was taken from this world. The muslims still needy and not wealthy as discribed by the Christians.
The only time in history that the Arabs of that region became ghaniy was after oil was discovered in Saudi which made them one of the Richest nations in the world. The Arab muslims of Makkah before the dicovery of the oil lived ruling in poverty through out their wars with the Crusader, Mongols etc until oil struck that enriched them that fulfilled the promiss that was made to them by Allah in 9:28.
Looks like we are back to square one:
Liberate wrote:...(btw there are no prophecies in it and you know it, the byzantines and persians alledge prophecy was done over a bet ( haram in islam) and was out by several years, the conflict occurred and ended 613-14AD to 627AD-628AD, it exceeds the within 5-8yrs specified in your koran, at least you admit you came to islam with a lack of prophecies because there isn't any)..
Again how can you make statements about a book you have never read before ?
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque (In MAkkah). And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. 9:28
The Makkans today are the lagest suppliers of the world's oil muchless the whole of Arabia now. Also, Arabia which is today called Saudi Arabia is one of the worlds richest countries in the world.
You are not fooling anyone but yourself.
HOW DO YOU DEFINE "SOON"?
Saudi arabia was created in 1932, after 1932 oil was discovered in the country, how do you define soon?, considering the bible already had that the descendants of Ishmael would be blessed seems allah is 1300 yrs too late. Do you not see the booty Mohammed was talking about was the captured women to be raped and the slavery to be had when he and his gang of cut throats besieged quraish businessmen