ROME wrote:Sahih al-Bukhari: book 61, volume 6
558. Narrated Aisha: Allah's Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget."
Didn't Mohammed pray five times daily? How was your prophet to forget some verses of the Quran?
And I am sure you know if anthing including that ahadeeth, even sahih, that contradicts the Quran, not to mention the majority of the ahadeeths, it is reject as false ahadeeth. Allah says:
Quran has authority over hadeeth. And the hadeeth you mention contradicts the majority of other ahdeeth that stated the Prophet recited the entire Quran every year during the month of Ramadhaan. You know this, but why favor a hadeeth that contradict even other hadeeths ?
ROME wrote:And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgetten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "O people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise: (lxi 2.) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13)
Above we see one of the Companions testifying the existence of part of a surah that is no longer in the Qur'an because it had been forgotten by him.
Who is
WE and how many others is being spoken about other than Abu Musa al-Ash'ari ? He was a Yemenis and a leader of his tribe that went to another tribe(Basra) to hear them recite Quran. The contect does not denote "We" as refereing to all the companions of the Prophet. This is a matter of your interpretation.
ROME wrote:can you locate the above surah for me in the present day Quran?
Yes sure.
http://quran.muslim-web.com/sura.htm?aya=061 this is Surah 62:2 refered to by Abu Musa al-Ash'ari
and the other is
http://quran.muslim-web.com/sura.htm?aya=017 which Surah 17:13
Both Surah's are there.
ROME wrote:But neither does it exclude the notion that the Quran may have been collected by text, orally or even both
It give the notion of both ie it was collected from from written text and what was memorize as show below.
As I go back to the beging, one confirmed the other in which the oral held preference to the correction of the text it seld, but of course it would take more than one hafeez to do this to confirm the accuracy of the text.
ROME wrote:Could it have been to respect the laws of the country that you have been allowed to live in as equal people, with equal rights?
I cant be serious right ? No, we dont compromise our religion for the sake of a state.
ROME wrote:The Christians and Jews that live in your Islamic countrys are second class citizens and in some cases like Egypt have to pay a tax (jiza) for believing what they do.
"Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" does this ring a bell ?
ROME wrote:You come to Christian countrys and are free to build mosques
Come ? I didnt come any were I was always here. You are wrong ! I cant speak for Europe but I can for sure speak about here. Obviously you dont know the procedures one has to go through to build or establish a building structure.
1) Needs apoval from the city hall
2) City hall commitee members who are residence of that city that regulate what they can and cannot have.
3) The memebers are made of majority Christians and some Jews and Atheists.
This is our Masjed project
http://www.icbr.org/ that we strugled for 4 years AGAINST Jews and Christian to build who denied us to build our Masjid which had to go to STATE SUPREME COURT. Now we have established the school in which we pray in until the actual musalah is built.
SO please save you balestic wichful thinking about we can build our masjid freely. We American Muslims spend more money in courts to get an approval through the law that is denied by so called Christians and Jews, than on our actual project that causes us to be delayed.
ROME wrote:and be equal like everybody eles as long as you respect the law, and that you cannot do?
What, run around like an animal liek those on the Jerry Springer Show ? To be like the People on the COPS show ? To go to clubs drink, have sex, walk around half naked ? What does doing what I believe is right that does not harm other have anything to do with EQUAL . Rubbish. There is no EQUALITY in the West.
Blacks are still being discriminated against. Now Arabs and muslims are being discriminated against. Look how many muslims lost their Jobs or people refused to hire them after 9/11. Rich and poor are not equal, they do not treat you equal in ANY COUNTRY. That word is a Joke.
ROME wrote:You want to inforce your doctrine of Islamic belief above the laws of a non Islamic country! If you dont like the laws then you are free to go home.
Ehm ! As long as the laws DO NOT compel us to do something against our beliefs we have no problem. Now to France banning Hijab, ther also banned Jewish and Christian symbols as well from public school. The problem we had is when a scholar who was respected came out in public and said its ok for our sister not to wear Hijab he was completely out of his darn mind.
So if your scholar told you its ok to have fornication cause everbody else does it do you think its right ?
ROME wrote:In Egypt to this day Coptic Christians are not allowed to build Churches or even rebuild broken down churches, why?
Eh ! Before the 1st Amend. was created no mosque could be build publically in Christian America. The 1st Amend. is not even more than a century old yet.
ROME wrote:I will be waiting for this new interpretation of the Quran, by doing this do you admit that all todays interpretations are vastly incorrect?
We will make sure I include this into the introduction. I like how you said NEW INTERPRETATION. In order to do this you would have to find the flaw in our translation. Dont worry we will keep you up to date. Just remember the name
Dimitri in which I will retain my name in it.
ROME wrote:H20 You are trying to impose that the Quran is perfect, that the surahs have been completely collected into the Quan, this is untrue.
No it is true.
Rome wrote:The fact is muslims cannot bring themselves to believe that the Quran has been tampered with, and parts of the Quran have been lost forever.
You mean some muslims just like some chiristians right ? You answer to this is our answer about them also. Well, I guess thats their problem right ? Not ours.
Rome wrote:Abdullah ibn Umar, in the earliest days of Islam said:
It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).
And we disagree with this, and will continue to. Before we go any further on this, is the Hadeeth Daif or Sahih. Also it contradicts other hadeeths. So why favor this over the others that said the opposite ?
Rome wrote:A part of the Quran was eaten by a goat for crying out loud, I am trying to locate the hadith.
You make it sound like tha was the only copy or other didnt memorize it. Again we come back to this beuatiful word "
Said Zaid, the main Cheif scribe. All I have been seeing you CHristians to in criticism of Islam is choose hadeeth that you like which appeals to your advantage but disregard the other ahadeeth that contradict it. So how do you know which is right ?
ROME wrote:
What is the arabic word for fragments in the arabic Fusha that might have been used, if the word was actually present?
kisrah,
tajzi'ah, or
takseer. However
kisrah would more fit the context per what Liberate was infering to in his criticism
------------------------------------------------NEXT LOKI----------------------------
Loki are you Irish ? Every time I see your name it makes me hungry cause I think of Lucky Charms.
Loki wrote:Some other hadith material wich refers to the quran's incompleteness.
1. It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: " Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).
You remind me of a revolving door.
Loki wrote:2. We used to recite a Sura which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust" (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2.p.501)
I bet you didnt go back and read all the hadeeths about that.
Sahih Al-Bukhari wrote:Book 005, Hadith Number 2277.
------------------------------
Chapter : If there were two valleys (of gold for the son, of Adam, he would long for the third one.
Abu Huraira reported from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as having said this: The heart of an old person feels young for the love of two things: love for long life and wealth.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2278.
------------------------------
Chapter : If there were two valleys (of gold for the son, of Adam, he would long for the third one.
Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said this: The heart of an old person is young for two things: for long life and love for wealth.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2279.
------------------------------
Chapter : If there were two valleys (of gold for the son, of Adam, he would long for the third one.
Anas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The son of Adam grows old, but two (desires) in him remain young: desire for wealth and desire for life.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2280.
------------------------------
Chapter : If there were two valleys (of gold for the son, of Adam, he would long for the third one.
A hadith like this has been narrated by Anas through another chain of transmitters.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2281.
------------------------------
Chapter : If there were two valleys (of gold for the son, of Adam, he would long for the third one.
This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Anas through another chain of transmitters.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2282.
------------------------------
Chapter : one is not rich because of the abundance of goods.
Anas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If the son of Adam were to possess two valleys of riches, he would long for the third one. And the stomach of the son of Adam is not filled but with dust. And Allah returns to him who repents.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2283.
------------------------------
Chapter : one is not rich because of the abundance of goods.
Anas b. Malik reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying this, but I do not know whether this thing was revealed to him or not, but he said to.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2284.
------------------------------
Chapter : one is not rich because of the abundance of goods.
Anas b. Malik reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If there were two valleys of gold for the son of Adam, he would long for another one and his mouth will not be filled but with dust, and Allah returns to him who repents.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2285.
------------------------------
Chapter : one is not rich because of the abundance of goods.
Ibn Abbas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If there were for the son of Adam a valley full of riches, he would long to possess another one like it, and Ibn Adam does not feel satiated but with dust. (14:13) And Allah returns to him who returns (to him). (14:14) Ibn Abbas said: I do not know whether it is from the Qur'an or not; and in the narration transmitted by Zuhair it was said: I do not know whether it is from the Qur'an, and he made no mention of Ibn Abbas.
Book 005, Hadith Number 2286.
------------------------------
Chapter : one is not rich because of the abundance of goods.
Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).
So who side did you take ? Abu Musa al-Ash'ari ? I would like to know how you christians keep picking and choosing hadeeths that are counteracted by others. Abu Musa al-Ash'ari had a faulty memory and confused one of the Prophets hadeeth with the Quran. Also in Arabic of the Hadeeth is different from the Quranic Arabic.
3. "God sent Muhammed and sent down the Scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning, we read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it, The apostle stoned and we stoned them after him. I fear that in time to come men will say that they find no mention of stoning in God's book and thereby go astray in neglecting an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily stoning in the book of God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah. p.684).
Maybe you misunderstood it. "GOD revealed or sent down to who ? What revelation of the RAjam are they talking about and its confirmation ?
Sahih Al-Bukhari wrote:Volumn 008, Book 082, Hadith Number 803.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ash-Sha'bi : From 'Ali when the latter stoned a lady to death on a Friday. 'Ali said, "I have stoned her according to the tradition of Allah's Apostle."
Volumn 008, Book 082, Hadith Number 804.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ash Shaibani : I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa, 'Did Allah's Apostle carry out the Rajam penalty (i.e. stoning to death)?' He said, "Yes." I said, "Before the revelation of Surat-ar-Nur or after it?" He replied, "I don't Know."
The stoning was not specifically mentioned in the Quran but instead the Quran confirmed the practice of rajam (stoning) as we continue to find out what was meant my what Allah Revealed or Sent down and what verses of the Quran confirmed the pratice of stoning.
Surah 3
[1] Alif Lam Mim.
[2] Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
[3] It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Musa) and the Gospel (of 'Isa).
[4] Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
What other books did Allah send down other than the Quran in our teaching ? Lets finish up with hadeeth pertaining to the same subject you desired not to understand properly.
Sahih Al-Bukari wrote:Volumn 008, Book 082, Hadith Number 809.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ibn 'Umar : A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.
And again where the specific verse of the Stoning came from that was inforced:
Sahih Muslim wrote:Book 017, Hadith Number 4214.
------------------------------
Chapter : Stoning to death of jews and other Dhimmis in case of adultery.
Al-Bara' b. 'Azib reported: There happened to pass by Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) a Jew blackened and lashed. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called them (the Jews) and said: Is this the punishment that you find in your Book (Torah) as a prescribed punishment for adultery? They said: Yes. He (the Holy Prophet) called one of the scholars amongst them and said: I ask you in the name of Allah Who sent down the Torah on Moses if that is the prescribed punishment for adultery that you find in your Book. He said: No. Had you not asked me in the name of Allah, I would not have given you this information. We find stoning to death (as punishment prescribed in the Torah). But this (crime) became quite common amongst our aristocratic class. So when we caught hold of any rich person (indulging in this offence) we spared him, but when we caught hold of a helpless person we imposed the prescribed punishment upon him. We then said: Let us agree (on a punishment) which we can inflict both upon the rich and the poor. So We decided to blacken the face with coal and flog as a substitute punishment for stoning. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: O Allah, I am the first to revive Thy command when they had made it dead. He then commanded and he (the offender) was stoned to death. Allah, the Majestic and Glorious, sent down (this verse): "O Messenger, (the behaviour of) those who vie with one another in denying the truth should not grieve you..." up to "is vouchsafed unto you, accept it" (v. 41)2176 It was said (by the Jews): Go to Muhammad; it he commands you to blacken the face and award flogging (as punishment for adultery), then accept it, but it he gives verdict for stoning, then avoid it. It was (then) that Allah, the Majestic and Great, sent down (these verses): "And they who do not judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed are, indeed, deniers of the truth" (v. 44); "And they who do not judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed-they, they indeed are the wrongdoers" (v. 45); "And they who do not judge in accordance with what God has revealed-they are the iniquitous (v. 47). (All these verses) were revealed in connection with the non-believers.
The Prophet gave the order
according to the Torah for the Adulter (Jew) and Adulteress(Jewess) to be stoned in which the Quranic verses 5:41-47 of the Quran had confirmed the stoning as the hadith mentions:
Surah 5
[41] O Prophet! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into Unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware! "If anyone's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such, it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
[42] (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.
[43] But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them? Therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
[44] It was We who revealed the Law (to Musa): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's Will, by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
[45] We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) wrong-doers.
[46] And in their footsteps We sent 'Isa the son of Maryam, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
[47] Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
So there goes your verses that was revealed confirming the pratice of Rajam. An thus is why it was continued. In order to understand the history of the verses of the Quran must understand the Quran historically.
4. A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that it had been
revealed in the holy Quran that ten clear sucklings make the
marriages unlawful then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five
sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it
was before that time (found) in the holy Quran (and recited by the
Muslims). (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p. 740).
Which is refering to Surah 4:23 that mentions all together a man and a woman of the same suckle cannot marry all together regardless of of how many time they suckled. The hadeeth does not stand to that Quran that does mention the prohibitation of sucklings.
Prohibited to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, daughters, sisters, father's sisters, mother's sisters, brother's daughters, sister's daughters, foster-mothers who gave you suck,
foster sisters (daughters of women who suckled you), your wives' mothers, your step-daughters under your guardianship born to your wives to whom you have gone in ( consum-mated marriage), no prohibition if you have not gone in, (those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (natural sons), and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time except for what is past, for God is Oft-forgiving." (4:23)
Quran is clean cut on this issue. No verse was left out and no verse mentioned anything about the number amount of times of the suckle to make a Nikah harram. The hadeeth, in the light of Quran, is distorted. Again Hadeeth doesn not supersede Quran, nor is Hadeeth the Word of Allah.
5. In one of the six most authentic Hadith books by Ibne Maja we find a parable told by Hazrat AyshaR, in which she says:
"The aa'yaa on rape and nursing of babies were lying in book form, that was kept in the patio. When the Holy Messenger passed away, we became busy in his funeral. During this time, our domesticated pet goat ate the manuscript of these two aa'yaa. And so these aa'yaa were wasted."
There were more than one copy of the Quranic text. Your above is remotely irrelevant due to the fact countless ahadeeth attest to multiple copies and Memorizers of the Quran not to mention this was before the battle of Yamama when there were countless memorizors and even after.
6. There are seventeen thousand Ayah in real Quran. (Al Shafi, Vol. No. 2, Page No. 616)
Verses sepration were not introduced until later on when the tashkeel was introduced. The Quran when written was written with no ayah division. Being that that is not a hadeeth you quoted but from Imami Shafi comments that were more than likely taken out of context.
Both you and ROME did nothing but copy and paste from Christian websites and didnt have the ardacity to confirm the information. But thanks for letting our spectators know your post are mere copy cat and that your supposed finding are not your own.
Seems like RomeSweetRome used a couple of these allready, didn't see it, sorry if i'm repeating.
Yup thats what you did. But its ok I am use to the carbage that needs to be swept out.
Let me go on to liberate now lets see what he got to say. Wow, I am taking on all three of you know. I can imagine what the response will be.
--------------------------------------------NEXT LIBERATE-----------------------
Are you a scholar of arabic and the koran H20? Why do you contradict koranic translations and tafsirs when you have no qualifications to do so?
Cause they are wrong that why. Show me where it says I have to be a scholar other than an Arabic speaker with eveidence to refute another scholars claim ? Remember this isnt Christianity which seems you have been using this lame excuse that I have to be a scholar to have authority to dismiss another scholars statment. This is what they do in Christianity not Islam.
How does this contradict the number of 450 by Ibn Kathir?
Whats the difference between 104 and 450 ?
Would you care to show us the opinion of the five other scholars?
Sure:
1. al-Nawawi, al-Tibyan fi Adab Hamala al-Qur'an (p. 31);
2. al-Dhahabi, Tabaqat al-Qurra' (1:24-50)
3. al-Suyuti, al-Itqan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:70-72);
4. al-Zarkashi, al-Burhan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:241-243);
5. Nur al-Din `Itr, `Ulum al-Qur'an al-Karim (p. 164-166).
Look them up your self. Get off you Online Christian Critic school and go to a real library.
Your opinion on the arabic translations to english is taken for what it is an opinion and fully entitled to it no matter how absurd it is yours and yours alone but since you proclaim it is incumbent on the majority and you have the onus on the truth and interpretation of islam, prove you are in a fit state to interpret the koran starting with your arabic scholar qualificaitons.
How owuld you know? Are you an Arabic Scholar ? I would like for you to show me where it say I have Arabic scholar Qualifications to speak on the Quranic Arabic. Who made this rule ? A Christian ?
From those stories that gives foundation to your faith that you chose to reject, hadiths. Care to show us your sources that contradict the numbers let us see where their sources are coming from.
How many time are we going to tell you this. If the hadeeth conflicts with the Quran it is rejected, if the hadeeth coinsided with the Quran it is accepted.
Run through that again, what are you trying to say here ?
Think About it
What are you talking about?
Read it again maybe it will become a little bit more clearer.
hould we get into another debate about how your koran was collated and amended right up to the 10th century by the dajjal and his scribes (who helped allah by adding 1,000 characters to the koranic text), and how Puin shows the earliest koranic manuscripts to be revision upon revision.?
Sure lets go for it. And make sure to show us the difference of arabic words with tashkeel and with out. What is the different.
If someone memorised something and they die, and somebody else comes to salvage what they and other people memorised into a book why would they be saying let us compile it before a large part of the book may be lost (are the quraa the quran???) does it not occur to you that parts of the book have already been lost especially when there are hadiths from MUSLIMS that state this is the case??
Nope. just says the it maybe loss not a prior loss occured.
"we have suffered losses at yamamma and we may suffer loses at other places so I suggest you compile the quran from the leaves, barks and animal skin you have and the memory of those that remember parts of it in case we may lose the koran" to you somehow this does not refer to actual loss being incurred on the koranic text itself, especially when there are hadiths that state such and such a verse is missing, it is unbelievable the levels westernised muslims will go to justify and maintain the lie.
"
Parts" can you show us where in that hadeeth it say the memorizors only knew parts ? Seems to me you have started your Christian interpolated illusionary understanding has stired up again.
Tell us H2O when was the koran arranged in the order it is today, and what was the purpose of that arrangement?
Click to back page and read back to here and you will have the answer.
When was the last time someone dictated something to you for 23 yrs and you memorised it end to end without writing anything down, this is just plain ridiculous didn't Mohammed have scribes that were writing down the abomination of a revelation?, are you going to deny this partiocular bit of your koranic history or maybe those hadiths were fabricated.
Yes he did have scribes that wrote it down, but didnt they also hear it from the prophet being repeated in their congregational prayers ? They did this every day. It was heard, then written, then heard again over and over and taught to others. The Majority of the first generation of muslims could not read and write had to learn the quran orally.
It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a Messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, - although they had been, before, in manifest error; -
62:2
the Unlettered < al-ummiyyin Pl. those who cannot read or write.
Looks like allah couldn't protect them a pity seeing this were the guardians of the alledge heavenly text
Who said who was going to guard the Quran ? Did the Qurraa'a die in the next war after Yamama ?
Tell us H2O what ahafeez means?
It means protectors or preservers.
Now, I am going to ask you who said who was going to protect or guard the Quran ?
You are now going to start twisting applications of the english language like you do with arabic (strange thing is if koranic arabic is so clear a child can understand it why do you need an english thesaurus to find varying words that agree with what you want it to say and proclaim that all the other translations are in error and this is what the koran really says?)
No it plain and simple. You are an English man that doesnt understand Arabic culture and Jargon.
I am very sorry to disappoint you H2O I can understand the headache you are causing your mother, you are greek you can't change where you are from the first steps to curing the madness that has made you become a mujaheddin for islam is acceptance of who you are. Let me guess at one time too you were jewish by language too?
You really think so huh ? Ther you go again wiht you wishful thinking.
Do you recall a certain Johnny Walker of the taliban fame? Guess who he reminds me of?
Awe, isnt that soo nice. YOu ever heard of Hamza Yusuf and other like him from the west that are reverts to the religion and can speak the language better than National Arabs themselves. They are regarded as Arabc not by nationality but by the language.
The website also has access to the same non translated sources the difference between you and the translators are the translators are equipped to translate the arabic as they are scholars you on the other hand are not up to their level you are in no position to dictate to them what their religion says.
According to who ?
Go to the usc website link I gave, have a look at it and tell me where and what I edited.
You ever heard of guilty cause of association ? You believed it, and followed it, so burn with it.
This is not worthy of a response...what are you trying to say here??
the size of the leafstalks stones, barks and animal skin??? relevance?
It has much relevance. Size determines the amount of space you will have to write something on. All those materials collected are in the plural. Size is considerable for the amount of information that could be contained in them.
Anybody can claim they speak arabic,you have been saying this from the beginning that every known translation and tafsir that does not agree with you is in error, what separates the wheat from the chaff? where are your qualifications to say anything related to islam? You speak arabic so does Osama so what?
Its my opinion in which I disagree based on sources. And again according to who do I need of such thing to prove a scholar wrong ?
I was hoping you would tell your audience, you did say how did Zaid know he had the whole koran unless he was of the ahafeez did you not?
If you didnt get it the first time go back and read again maybe it will dawn on you.
You then contradict yourself by claiming you didn't say he memorised the whole koran when ahafeez/hafiz means precisely that somebody who has committed the entire koran to memory, H2O for a muslim apologist you are an embarassment.
You must have gotten bad grades in English when you were a kid in grade school.
It seems you have picked up the habits of your foul mouthed shia brother.
You your man worhsipping pathetic wishful thinking moronic casper inspired bat brains have made the same bad mouth disrespectful comments to us and our prophet every time you post something about islam. Not once could you carry on a convo with any muslims without making slashing remarks. That why I answer you the way I do now cause I have absolutel NO repect for you. Others on here, except for few, have entertained debating in proper tone without trying to offend anyone.
Uhm they do not mention any saudi oil prophecy because it does not exist, who agrees with you H2O regarding the saudi oil prophecy? where are their websites? you are so desperate to find anything to deem Mohammed prophethood you are clinging on straws making you a laughing stock, show us one tafsir anywhere that suggests sura 9:28 is a saudi oil prophecy, maybe that verse about the moon being split occured when Armstrong landed on the moon right?
Your right 9:28 doesnt mention any about oil. It mention a prophecy of the Arabs of the Region becoming rich, in which after the establishment of, they became rich, without it they would probably be just like afghanistan.
Yes ofcourse you don't belong in any sect and you don't believe in sects but you go only to the masjids of the sunnis as opposed to the shias, BUT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN ANY SECTS. So you realise you need an arabic qualification to teach arabic and interpret the koran and islamic jurispundence pls tell us what you arabic scholar qualifications are I am sure everybody is dying to know.
No Shia Mosques around here. This is Boca on one mosque is here in this town. The Shia come to the masjid to. I prayed next to one on friday. Nope I am not a sect. I am a muslim a haneed muslim and that is what I am commanded all to be.
When? Good grief your posts are literred with ridicule and insults against anybody who has translated the koran into english, even respected scholars of islam, some of them cambridge graduates yet hearing you it sounds like they didn't understand english, where are your qualifications to dismiss what these people have to say?
According to who ? What rule says that. Remember this is not Christianity your rules as to the matter of religous interpretation doesnt apply to us.
Wait a minute, would you care to answer a yes or no question:
yes/no/yes/no/yes/no/yes choose which one like you do with our hadeeths
Do you think your translation is error proof? yes or no?
So far what we have presented as our own can you find error ? It still
falls short in distance of being the Quran or like it but we got it as close as we could to the original.
When we are finisehd we will let you all know.
Excuse me?
You think the end game of christianity is to obtain houris (This is where the english whore is derived from how do you look yourself in the mirror with the full knowledge that you are doing all this to get whores) in a fornication wine frolick paradise called jannah? I am sorry but thats your religion, you have been very quiet around the aspects of paradise other than to laugh at it I am sure your fellow muslims will be real impressed that this self professed one man defender of the faith when pressed the best he can do is laugh at his own religion.
You will find out soon. It a promiss.
Why don't you put it up on a website so it can be accesible to all if you believe you have the onus on the truth of islam don't you want everybody to have access to it?
Well before we do that we first have to learn how pathetic you are in you thinking , how you hit, dodge, run, attack, back flip, cart wheels, summer saults etc in your debates.
You are our labratory rats, we get result after experementing before procceeding with the goal.
I would rather ask your al-azhar mentors if they sanction your free lance translations of saudi oil prophecy in 9:28 and that the koran should be interpreted relative to the context when it says fight those that don't believe wether they be the people of the book or not, I am sure al-azhar would really like to know why a non scholar of the language in which arabic is not his native tongue is reinterpreting their religion for them, so for the 1400 yrs of islam only now in the 21st century is the truth coming out courtesy of a greek megalomaniac who thinks he is the greatest koran translator, reinterpreter and hadith rejecter this side of the atlantic?
You want some oil ? Ok we will make sure we send you couple quarts for your olds mobile.
Woosh, finally finshed. Well I might as well prepare my self for when all of you respond. I would like to carry on our short debate with ROME again. It might be a while as I said. Liberate got bored and jumped in and he is going to continue like a revolving door. Lokie you want to join him to. Come on guys , make up your own stuff stop copy and pasting.
Remember we are on the defensive here you are the offensive. We will stop when your ready to stop. I would like to see this top out to over 100 pages. Lets see if we can do it guys. Oh by the way while you all are occupied with me in this room you might have some company in others.