(Omega) wrote:Hello hisway!
hisway wrote:Again I have explained this point numerous times. The omnipresent Spirit of the Father was: 1. In Heaven and 2. Indwelt the human body of the Son together at the same time. Where was the omnipresent Spirit of the Father? 1. In Heaven and 2. Indwelling the body of the Son thus in both places at the same time. Where was the human spirit of the Son? In the human body of the Son - where else could it be? I already stated that in my last post. Are you playing games with me pretending you did not read that already? Part of the problem is the issue regarding the name of Jesus which Jesus as a man said, "I have manifested Thy [the Father's] name..." (John 17:6). And again Jesus said, "And I have declared unto them Thy [the Father's] name. (John 17:26).
"Jesus was Omnipresent and Limited at the same time"... As a Spirit (Father) He was omnipresent and as a man (Son) He was limited. How else could it be? Even according to the trinity doctrine the Son was limited as a man, you admitted that yourself in the following:
I have manifested [
Thy] Fathers will or
my [Jesus'] will? And have declared they[the Father's]name or
my[Jesus']name. According to you there is only
one name, isn’t that what you teach.
Why are you even asking that question? The name of the Father that Jesus declared is "Jesus". The ONE name for the three titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost is "Jesus". The name of the Father is Jesus. The name of the Son is Jesus. The name of the Holy Ghost is Jesus. From where did the Son inherit His name? (Heb 1:4) - from the Father. What was that name? - Jesus. If the Father's name was "Jesus" and the Father gave that name by inheritence to the Son then the Son's name would be "Jesus". It is no different than when a human child is given their father's surname.
Omega wrote: Furthermore the voice of the Father from Heaven does not resonate from within the Son but from Heaven to the Son on Earth!
Of course that is a true statement. I never said otherwise. The Father as omnipresent Spirit was in heaven at the same time indwelling the human body of the Son. If the Father desired to speak out from heaven He could do that and still remain indwelling a human body. That is what being omnipresent is all about. So what?
hisway wrote:Why don't you re-read my posts or read them more carefully to begin with? I plainly stated in my posts on this same thread that the omnipresent Spirit of the Father was 1. in heaven and 2. indwelling the body of the Son (on earth) at the same time. I just repeated this again in this post above. The human spirit of the Son was not omnipresent - why? - because He was human. Again you keep referring to the name of Jesus as only applying to the Son as a separate person and the Father having a different name which is not true. The confusion relating to the name of Jesus is a rotton fruit the trinity doctrine produces. As I stated many times throughout this forum and above in this post that the name of Jesus is the revealed name of the ONE God. The Son manifested and declared the name of the Father (John 17:6 and 17:26). And by inheritance the Son obtained His name from the Father (Heb 1:4) And that name is Jesus.
Let's compare what I actually said above for reference to what you say below:
Omega wrote:1. You first state: the omnipresent Spirit of the Father was 1. In heaven and 2. Indwelling the body of the Son (on earth) at the same time
2. Then you go on to say:The human spirit of the Son was not omnipresent - why? - because He was human.
Why would the Son NOT BE OMNIPRESENT, if the OMNIPRESENT SPIRIT of the Father was IN THE HUMAN SON??
How can you even ask such a redundant question? The only Spirit that is omnipresent in this case is that of the Father's. Tell me, since I have the omnipresent Spirit of God dwelling in me does that make me omnipresent? Of course not! So why would the human body of Jesus be any different? The form of the Son was as human as you or I am with all its limitations. Notice what Jesus said,
"I can of Mine Own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not Mine Own will, but the will of the Father..." (John 5:30) Here Jesus states His limitations as a man. Furthermore, Jesus said,
"...the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works." (John 14:10) Again this confirms that Spirit of the Father was the only Divinity at work in the body of the Son. The Son did none of the Divine works but the Father. You still fail to make the distinction between the Divine nature and the human nature of the Son.
Omega wrote:So you have ONE Omnipresent Spirit in the Son and in Heaven and then you have ONE Human Spirit which is not Omnipresent, HOW MANY SPIRITS DOES THAT MAKE??? 1+1= HOW MANY???
Again, another redundant question. How can you even ask? Every human being saved or unsaved has a human spirit (soul). That is what the first advent of Jesus Christ is all about - to save human spirits (souls). If you can get the notion of a pre-eternal Son out of your mind for a few minutes to think objectively you would not need to keep asking the same questions over and over again about this simple issue. Every human being has a human spirit (soul) - DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Every born again believer has a human spirit (soul)
separate from the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. It was no different in the case of Jesus as a man. He was a man with a human spirit (soul). That is what made Him fully human. A human spirit (soul) is limited. That is why Jesus as a man said He could do nothing of His Own Self. Because His Own Self as a man was human! But Jesus as a man had the Spirit of the Father indwelling Him separate from His human spirit (soul). Therefore, there was the Spirit of Father in the body of the Son (Divinity) and a human spirit (soul) in the body (humanity). The human spirit is not Divine it is human. Jesus inherited His human side from Mary - a human. And Jesus inherited His Divine side from the Father - God. What is so hard to understand about that?
Omega wrote:Furthermore you skipped my argument: John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
So Did the Human Jesus and His Human will share the Glory with the Omnipresent Father before the foundation of the world?
What? The human nature and will of the Son did not exist until Mary concieved and gave birth. Again I explained this previously and you have twisted what I said. You must learn how to read properly. Is English a second language to you or something? The only Glory Jesus had before the foundation of the world was that of being the ONE omnipresent Spirit.
[quote="hisway"What Glory did the Son have before the foundation of the world? The Glory He had as the ONE omnipresent Spirit. Again Jesus was speaking out of a dual nature.
The Divine nature - the Spirit of the Father indwelling (the body) of the Son pre-existed in eternal Glory. At the moment Jesus was praying that prayer He was in a state of high anxiety for He knew His time was at hand. His humanity was struggling against the Spirit. He was sweating beads of blood. He realized by the Spirit the Glory He had as the ONE omnipresent Spirit before He took on the form of a human body. There is no other possiblity. As I stated before it is impossible for a co-eternal Son to change His attribute of being omnipresent. And it is another impossibilty the Son pre-existed as non-omnipresent Spirit otherwise He was not co-equal in attributes. Either way the trinity contradicts both those possibilities.[/quote]
Omega wrote:WOW Jesus had a DUAL NATURE BEFORE the Foundation of the World??? Christ had a body before the foundation of the World???
What are you talking about? What I said which is quoted above and what you high-lighted in large letters means just what it says.
THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER PRE-EXISTED IN ETERNAL GLORY I was simply trying to show that the Divine nature of the Son comes from the Father and the Father is the One who pre-existed. And a not pre-existed Son. But you have added a false interpretation of what I wrote.
Omega wrote:So according to you Jesus had a Human and Divine Nature before the Foundation of the World??
That is an out right lie. You're just twisting up my words around and misinterpreting what I said.
Omega wrote: Or better yet, The Spirit of the Father indwelling (the body) of the Son pre-existed WITH WHO OR WHAT?
Come on, the ONE omnipresent Spirit of the Father existed alone and by Himself. Quit perverting what I said. You are being deceitful and misleading and falsely re-phrasing what I said. Shame on you.
Omega wrote: The Human Spirit existed with the Divine Spirit, once again we have two spirits! Key word"(with)" And if I misunderstood you then when Did God become Flesh? Re-read your own posts! According to what you said, the Dual Nature consists of the Human and Divine, therefore the Human Nature existed Before the Foundation of the World, according to SCRIPTURES, God became Flesh at the incarnation, do you deny this???
I never said any such thing. I fully explained this issue above. Just because you can't comprehend a simple concept don't pass the buck on me by rewriting my words. How can a human nature pre-exist eternally? I never said any such thing. The only time the human nature existed with the Divine nature is when Jesus walked the earth as a man. You make no sense at all in your replies. The Dual Nature refers to Jesus as a man on earth and has nothing to do with pre-existence. The ONE omnipresent Spirit of God simply incarnated a human body as God manifest in the flesh. I have preached that since I first started on this forum and never wavered from it. You have resorted to fraud tactics by twisting up my words.
Omega wrote: Anyone can see for themselves how your caught in your own error and making it appear as if I am the one who is misconstruing your posts. Scriptures DO NOT TEACH that God had a human nature BEFORE the INCARNATION! Either way, your teaching is erroneous. Stop teaching False Doctrines!!!
I never said God had a human nature before the incarnation. I have said that numerous times. The whole point of my argument has been that the Son did not pre-exist. You are making things up and then saying I said them. What are you talking about? It is you who need to stop perverting my words.
Omega wrote:Hebrews 1:3 - Who being{oan} the brightness{apaugasma} of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
oan:Being
apaugasma:Shining forth, of a light coming from a luminous body.
Here I did mess up. I took Strongs 541 from the Hebrew instead of the Greek. No wonder I asked what light and shining radience? I was very tired at the time and I was rushing to make my post.
ops: I will get it right below:
Omega wrote:Try going directly to that verse and see how the word for "being" and "the brightness" is used in its correct context and in no other section of the Bible and you will then see how your interpretation and the rest of it go hand in hand in error.
From Strongs:
"brightness" - (541)
apaugasma: from a compound of 575 and 826;an off-flash i.e. effulgence-brightness.
(575)
apo:a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time or relation; lit. ot fig.):--(x here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with.
In composition (as a prefix) it usually means denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
(826)
augazo: from 827; to beam forth (fig.):--shine
"[the Son] Who being the brightness of his [the Father's] glory...(Heb 1:3)
The "his" refers to the Father in this verse. Thus the Son is the brightness of the Father's glory. The "brightness" here even taking into consideration the Greek shows only the Son is a manifestation of the Father. The Father departed from heaven to indwell a human body to take on the role of Son in redemption. This does not prove a pre-existent Son. It does prove the Father pre-existed. Again the glory that is revealed by the Son is the Father's Glory. Furthermore, this does not change the context of the full passage of Hebrews 1:1-13 as I previously posted about.
I will stop here for now because I am exhausted and have to work early tomorrow. I will come and edit this post and continue responding below each quote.
Omega wrote:John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
According to your theology hisway, if Jesus doesn't leave the earth and ascend to heaven, He is not able to send (Himself) back from heaven to the earth."
Omega wrote:John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Another{allos}:another or other
Other: \An*oth"er\, pron. & a. [An a, one + other.]1. One more, in addition to a former number; a second or additional one, similar in likeness or in effect.
Courtesy of Hyperdictionary!
Once again according to your theology, Jesus asked Himself to send Himself!
So according to you we have, th Human Spirit, the Omnipresent Spirit of the Father and then ANOTHER(Holy Spirit){allos}Comforter!
Further refutation in which you failed to answer:
John 12:28 - Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Now according to your theology, this is a communication between Jesus’ Humanity and His Deity. This is clearly a conversation between two persons, unless your trying to say that the Omnipresent spirit of God the Father in Heaven speaking to the Human Jesus on Earth is dual nature? Do we have dual natures? And if so, do we speak with ourselves?
(Omega) wrote:The verse could read "I THE ONE OMNIPRESENT GOD came down from heaven, not to do mine own will [as the human form of the Son] but the will of [the ONE omnipresent Spirit God]..." Jesus as a man had a human will the same as any other human would.
Why would and "
OMNIPRESENT" SPIRIT need to
come down from Heaven if it is OMNIPRESENT?
Omega wrote:Lets make a comparison between Spirit and Nature.
- Human Nature
- Divine Nature
- Human Spirit
- Divine Spirit
Spirit and Nature are not the same by definition.
According to you, Jesus had a "Dual" Spirit! Should we replace "Spirit" with "Nature" whenever the word Spirit is used in Scriptures? One should
be "quick to hear and slow to speak"not "slow to hear and quick to speak"
Even if you made a vain attempt at providing a link between Spirit and Nature, your theology remains flawed.
1. The Nature of the Human Spirit
2. The Nature of the Divine Spirit.
You still have 2 spirits, understand?
We are done here hisway, your theology of the Godhead has been proven fallacious beyond reasonable doubt. Now we move on to the "Will" Portion of your argument. If Christ (CAME NOT) to do His "Human Will" but His "Divine Will", then we have 2 wills. One Human and the OTHER Divine. Furthermore your Dual Nature does not work here either. What was Christs "Human" will in the First place? Since He opted not to perform His own Human will?
God is now between 2 separate wills, once again "will" and "Nature" are
NOT THE SAME!!
Christ stating that He "CAME NOT" to do His"OWN" Will but the Fathers is suggesting 2 separate wills, which are both DIVINE!
Omega wrote:Whether it is HUMAN or DIVINE, should it not be "HIS" OWN WILL??? And not His Fathers?
Jesus says that He is not here to do His Human will but His Divine will, Whether Divine or Human, Is it not Still "HIS WILL" Did Jesus say that He was doing His will or the Fathers? Furthermore the Scriptures state that he that doeth the (will of God) abideth for ever.1 John 2:17
But according to your theology, He that doeth the "Nature of God" abideth forever. Do you possess the Divine Nature of God? I have DISECTED your theology of the Godhead and exposed its heretical teachings. You are utterly deceived. Hisway, I think it is you who needs to give your False Doctrine a rest.