Christian/Muslim ThreadsBefore Jesus(pbuh), Monotheism or trinityI still dont think i have an answer to my question, Did The Prophets Before Jesus (PBUH) believe in the Trinity or not, Showing me verses from the OT that supposedly says they did are not enough, because Jewish sources have refuted those. Do you follow what Ibraheem,Noah,Moses, or David (PBUT) believed in? Is this analogy of time correct? No it is not, because it paints past, present and future as distinct parts, whereas they are merely relative descriptions. The past is past, and the present cannot influence the past. The past is not a real concept but an abstract relartivity, that does not interact with anyone. The past is dead, in a sense. Likewise, the future has no impact either on the present. The future is another abstract concept that we cannot reach. And the present is no longer the present. After you read those words, the present became the past. So the major problem with this analogy is that it doesn't serve this statement: Quote: each of the persons of the Godhead is distinct (this is what christians believe) Time is relative, and dependent upon the observer. Time can speed up or slow down depending on velocity. If I move really fast, will Christ become the Holy Spirit? Oh no! the father just turned into Christ! If you think about it, this analogy causes more problems than it solves. Quote: With space, height is distinct from width, which is not the same as depth, which is is not the same as height. Yet, they are not three 'spaces,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: space. Another ridiculous idea. Do these missionaries not understand the fundamentals of geometry? Do they really wish to claim that each person is a dimension? This clearly means that there is no interaction amongst the dimensions, and each is restricted to its own linear path. So let me ask you, when the son died, did the universe become 2d?! Again, this creates more problems than it solves Quote: With matter, solid is not the same as liquid, which is not the same as gas, which is not the same as solid. Yet, they are not three 'matters,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: matter. I have seen this one before. Any Christian who thinks about it will realize that this is unacceptable for Christians. First of all, the claim that they are 'one matter' has no meaning. Matter is a classification, not an object. What are liquids, solids and gases? Let's think about this analogy. A solid occurs when the molecules have little energy, and cohesive bonds bind them together tightly. Now, if we being to add energy to the solid, the molecules gain kinetic energy. The substance thus expands. You can already see the problems if we apply this to God. These are states. While the trinity claims that the persons are distinct. Something must be either solid or liquid or gas. The same substance cannot exist in all three forms at the same time. So tell me, is God right now a Son, a Father, or a Holy Spirit? How hot does it get before the Father sublimates into the Holy Spirit? Or the Holy Spirit condenses into the Son? But wait, it gets better. How do we explain the Son dying?! Source of the baloney Analogies http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm And before i go on, may ask the christians if this is correct His human self died, his Spirit lived on. The pain and suffering that human body Jesus had before he died, This is another one of the problems with this doctrine. If the human shell only died, then it would be incorrect to say that God died to save us. Because only some flesh encasing God died. And saying he was 'fully God' yet 'fully man' is as logical as saying a planar shape is 'fully square' and 'fully circle'. When we say that the trinity is illogical, are we trying to comprehend God's nature within our limited scope of comprehension? Is that why we cannot comprehend trinity? Or is it because of something else? There is a distinct difference between admitting that we cannot comprehend God's nature or appearance, and attributing something to God which defies reality. Allow me to elaborate. 1 is not equal to 3 (provided that the units are consistant). Those three units cannot operate with the same properties as the one unit. If one was equal to three then it wouldn't be one. Is this a matter of attempting to comprehend God? No, it is simply a matter of defining constant values in our universe. According to trinitarian Christianity, God sent the Son to the world. The sender and the one being sent cannot be the same. Jesus called out to God and prayed to Him. The caller and the one being called upon cannot be the same. So the notion that there are three persons in one God, 3 in 1, is really nothing more than polytheism, because 1 God is 1 person, not three. Now a trinitarian may argue, "Well God can do everything. Why are you placing limits on God?" The answer is yes, God can do anything and we are not placing limits on God, BUT within the scope of reality of our universe, certain properties are real and defined. We live in a real universe, therefore, all elements within this set must be real. Can the immortal die? A trinitarian will say, "God can do anything" but the correct answer is no, the immortal cannot die because that defies his attribute of immortality. If you die, you aren't immortal! It's not a matter of setting limits on God, its a matter of consistency in describing our universe. Can the All-Mighty be overcome? A trinitarian would say, "God can do anything" but again, this has nothing to do with God's potential. Death and being overcome, these are not abilites they are inabilities. Death is the inability to live, therefore, the Eternal cannot die. NOT because of any lack in His potential, but because it defies His set attributes. Moving on, trinitarians ask muslims, "you believe in the virgin birth of Christ. If you believe in the biologically impossible, why do you blame us for believing in the mathematically impossible?" The answer is that those two beliefs are not analogous. What the trinitarian is describing as biologically impossible is still CONCEIVABLE. We can understand the notion of God placing an already fertilized zygote within Mary, or acheiving this virgin brith through some similar mechanism. When God suspends the standard laws which govern the universe, we term this a miracle. In this case, it is a biological miracle. It is conceivable because we are not bringing equality between two unequal elements. Nor are we interchanging elements of disjoint sets. In the real universe, all properties are real. in the real universe, God is One. But trinity is not a mathematical miracle the way that the virgin birth is a biological miracle. Trinity is inconceivable. It defies the attributes that have been set in stone. When God says He is ONE, it means He is ONE. Not three. Trinity attempts to make the Eternal/immortal die. Trinity attempts to make the unequal equal. Such things are not properties of the universe we live in. So the trinity canot be accepted by anyone because it is logically self-contradictory. God has said, "He is not the Author Of Confusion" . And trinity is the most Confusing thing in the Christian doctrine, So i ask again, Why dont the Jewish or the Prophets before Jesus (PBUH) ever believed in Trinity? [/quote] |
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