H2O wrote:Loke in response to Peace wrote:...indeed their is no reward for that... yet you believe a religion that gives a reward for killing and slaying in the name of God in order to reach heaven is truthfull... very anti-CHRISTian
"Let those fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumps, we will give him a handsome reward." [4]
and those who don't are condemned to hell
One thing a person like Peace2God'sPeople doesnt need you to do is mislead him and indeed you have by quoting out out of context of our book.
i'll leave the missleading to the quran and it's mullah's thank you, i'm only pointing to the truth... if i were quoting things out of contexts then Muhammed his actions wouldn't confirm these verses of war.
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. [9]
Whether unarmed or well equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your persons.[9]
there are countless of Sahih hadith's verses wich confirm this sort of action even more:
Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N50 “The Prophet said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.’”
"This religion will never cease to exist. A party of the Muslims shall always fight for it until the Hour comes." [Muslim Vol 2, p. 347]
No capital punishment for killing non-muslims [Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 111]
"Bring them with chains on their necks 'till they embrace Islam" [Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80]
[4] Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter, To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
[4] And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!
We are not Christians whom allow their oppressors to bucher them. We are to defend our selves when beign oppressed adn wrogn unjustly. We as muslims are only to fight to defend our selves if we are attacked FIRST
merely because you 'feel' you are being opressed... who confirms opression? does the quran defines what opression is? no, it doesn't... so any muslim who thinks that society is against him is justly granted the right to slay entire families in order that he gets his peace of mind and with it as a reward his virgins in paradise.
and when did Mecca attack muhammed? when did Byzantium attack the arabian pensulina? when did Persia do that? when did India do that? yet these countries were overrun and butchered for no reason then not submitting to the caliph's will. And still these are seen as muslims and very respectfull one's non the less.
[2] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
what defines the transgression? the limits of muhammed even include the rape of pagan female captives, the killing of children (pagan kids)...
[2] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
this verse fully speaks of fighting with only exception that you can't fight near his expensive mosque's it's only at that place that you can't fight untill they fight first... considering the rest of the non-mosque area world you can fight and kill all you want without exceptions.
[2] But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
yeah, don't kill the army that gives in to his loss... did he really need to reafirm this? isn't this something you obviously do?
[2] And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
again what defines opression? in any country some minority thinks that society is against them... so de facto any muslim who 'feels' he is been threated wrong can rightfully assasinate the president or prime minister of a country because he is a 'opressor' in his opinion. In fact you just justified every islam extremist as a genuine muslim.
This was the first and STANDARD rule on fighting. WE are to fight only in sefl defence of an attacker whom is to bring harm to us. All the verses in the Quran that deal with fighting fall under this verse.
again what quarrel had the Franks with the caliphs when they tried to conquer Europe? What was the quarrel the Sultans of the Ottoman empire with Europe when they joined the germans to fight against the allies? When did the people in the World Trade Center ever attacked mister multi millionair Osama Bin Laden?
Loki wrote:"When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly." [17]
I would like to know why you quoted this verse from the Quran it has nothing to do with war. This verse is speaking about the civilizations that Allah destroyed in the past such as Egypt, Babylon, Sodom and Gomora etc for their sin after a messenger adn his grace was sent to them while warning them. These countries were wealty productive Allah gave them respite adn gave them enbough rope to hang themselves.
"WE" Muhammed is trying to justify his destruction of populations with historical biblical events. He's using it in his perverted context of his perverted wars disregarding everything the bible says about peacemakers and picking from it what he likes the most... wich is war
America is all these former countries in one and blasphemies in G-d's name saying in G-d we trust but allowing the sins to be practiced like that of former nations that were distroyed by his wrath.
And again show the context when you are going to quote our book it is not the Bible.
His wrath was set up against the countries that attacked or threatend Israel... all nations you summed up have been totally anihalted from history due to attacks against israel... the last civilasation that did this were 6 muslim nations supported by the entire muslim world. If one thing will fall, it won't be the US but Islam.
And the US is the caretaker and protecter of Israel. If America is sinfull in your opinion then so are the secularizing Islam countries like Turkey, Indonesia and the United Arabian Emirates. By the way you can't judge entire groups of people based upon the sins represented by others their are muslims living in the US as well you know. I thought in Islam you were judged indivually? yet you condemn entire nations merely for living between a certain set of borders.
[17"13] Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: on the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
[17] (It will be said to him "Read thine (own) record; sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
[17] Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a Messenger (to give warning).
[17] When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then We destroy them utterly.
[17] How many generations have We destroyed after Nuh? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.
[17] If any do wish for the transitory things (of this life), We readily grant them such things as We will, to such persons as We will: in the end have We provided Hell for them: they will burn therein, disgraced and rejected.
internal Quranic contradiction in wich muhammed first claimed everyone is judged individually and now entire groups are condemned merely for being born in the wrong country or from the 'wrong' ethnic group
As you go on Loki you are making things worse for what is suppose to be Christianity.
what do you know about christianity H20, half of the time you are unable to comprehend simple theologies wich the majority of the population on earth seems to comprehend at ease.
Loki wrote:Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]
According to what translation ? if you are talking about Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation :
In fact that phrase in Arabic is in
ALL MASCULINE refering to that Allah has given more to some men than other men in which the context reflects wealth.
the inferiority is not my issue here, it is the beating that is granted with it, that is the real issue.
Men are caretakers upon Women because Allah has favored some of them(men) above other (men)....etc
That is what the verse explicitly means in Arabic.
...Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct...Quran 4:34
Why shouldnt a woman be devoted and obedient to her husband ? What did you Bible say in Genesis ?
Genesis 3:16 To the woman he(G-d) said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
Man is to rule over woman according to your book. If I am the maintainer/caretaker/protector of a woman she should be devout and obedient to her husband.
again this is not my issue, your beating around the bush... my issue is the beating of women because a man is superior he is allowed to hit the weaker undefensible gender according to Islam.
...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct...Quran 4:34
"
Nushooz" which is applied to a rude, contentious, perverse, flirting, disrespecting woman whom also violates the ties of marriage. Men are to handle such wives in the fashion.
..admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Quran 4:34
1) to admonish them first, if they do not stop
2) then stop sharing the bed with them, if they do not stop
3) hit them "idhribahunna" meaning
a single hit and not
yudhribahunna or
mudhribahuun to express repetitive strikes or hits as you would imagine in your western thinking of a rocky boxing match.
and then after all that Allah says in the end
"..seek not against them means (of annoyance).." in which she is not to be injured.
The only place a woman is to be hit under this rule is on her "buttom".
And the next verse stipulates if this method does not solve the problem the seek counciling if this doesnt work then DEVORCE !
Loki wrote:Women have fewer rights concerning divorce [2]
oh please H20, you really think that this only implies a gentle slap on the bottom? do you really believe that your Allah implies such a ridiculous thing would solve a social problems in the family? isn't it more reasonable to assume as many muslims who abuse their wifes that beating is a form of though love.
and the worrying this about this verse is that if you 'FEEL' that she is gonna leave you, you may eventually beat her... let's hope those muslim women never get a paranoid or jealous husband then.
WoOHOo ! What does your bible say about the rights of women ?
Hmm ! I want our lovely audience to notice that Loki never confirms what he reads he merely does teh Copy/Paste magic trick to make people think he is learnt in Islam while in fact he is not, his scooling of islam is obtained from Anti Islamic websites hosted by followers of Jesus.
I always quote your quran and hadiths my friend, if smuttering my integrety is the best defence you got, then it's very pathetic.
[2] Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
This is the verse I think Loki in error was trying to quote. but did he ever read it to see what it says ? No of course not cause he had no idea where it was or not or if the quotation he got was correct.