H2O wrote:Loki wrote:And if you wanna learn Islam history the last place you wanna learn it, is from a Mullah
Do you know what the difference is between a Mullah and Mu'alim ? Our studies are not derived from Mullahs. You should have asked where I studied its history from rather than inclining to your own prejuidce assumtions.
you do not know or want to know the real history of islam, it's irrelevant where or where you not picked up and believed this garbage.
T. W. Arnold, A preaching of Islam
: This work was written by a Christian, who is a scholar in Islamic history
gimme the URL of his book, and himself confining that he is a christian.
cause otherwise, just like always:
1) muslims will quote for example one good paragraph out of an entire negative view of Islam
2) and/or call a secularists/atheist a christian merely for being born in the 'west'
Sir WIllaim Muir, The life of Mohamet
: Another Christian and Islamic historian with extensive work done whom used Arab tradition and Islamic Hadeeth and Quran in his work on the biography of Muhammad(s.a.w.).
Muir comments on muslim treatment to Christians under muslim rule during the first generation:
It may be interesting to illustrate the practical treatment of Christianity by Mahomet after his acquisition of political power, by the treaties entered into with Christian tribes. The following passage from one of the early biographers relates to the important Christian settlement of Najran. The Prophet of the Lord wrote to the Bishop of the Bani Harith, and the Bishops of Najran, and their Priests, and all that followed them, and their Monks;-saying, that they should continue in (the possession and practice of) everything small and great, as it then stood, in their churches, their prayers, and their monasteries. The pledge of God and of His prophet was given that no Bishop should be removed from his bishoprick, nor any Monk from his monastery, nor any Priest from his priesthood; that their authority and rights should not be altered, nor any thing whatever which was customary amongst them; so long as they conducted themselves peaceably and uprightly. They shall not be burdened with oppression, neither shall they oppress."41
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Mui ... /chap7.htm
Muir's work is the most widely used and illustrative guide in understanding Islamic history. His work is available online for research
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Muir/index.htm whish is nicely hosted by an anti islamic website but for some reason christian disregard this part and follow garbage to paint islam as what Loki would call "demonic religion".
H20... do keep in mind that your prophet was a politician, ironically (if you ever read that website) the page before this indicates the hostile nature of Islam
Hostile declarations against Jews and Christians.
The exclusive and growingly intolerant position of Islam is sufficiently manifested by the ban issued against the Jews and Christians, as unfit for the sacred rites and holy precincts of the Meccan temple; and by the Divine command to war against them until, in confession of the superiority of Islam, they should consent to the payment of a tribute.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Muir/Life2/chap7.htm
Mister muir's, also points out plagiarism, the mary trinity and your prophet's lack of christian knowledge... guess you accept that all too then?
thx for the interesting site
your giving your debater the rope that hangs you
Dr. Gustav LeBon, Civilization of the Arabs: Speaks about Arab civilizations and Islamic conquests
Robert G. Hoyland, SEEING ISLAM AS OTHERS SAW IT: This work collects all Christian, Jewish, and non muslims documents on how and what happened when they were under muslim rule and their treatment and how they saw Islam based on this. The work also expounds on Islamic history with hadeeth and Quran.
Paul Johnson, A History of Christianity: This is the elite on Christian history. You cannot receive a degree in world theology unless you have read his book which is the standard in universities for study. His work not only speaking about Christianity but reflects muslim treatment toward Christians during the 7-8 centuries which came into contact with the first generation of Muslims. The letters are completely in opposite and remote from "Islam spread by the Sword" myth.
Any Hughes, Christian Centuries: This is the Prime of Christian history, a volumless collection. Took me 5 years to read all 17 Volumes of this work. It reflects the same as Paul Johnson's with with indept details of how Muslims, Chirstians, and Jews lived in Jerusalem before the invasion by the crusaders.
gimme the URL to the book, and themself confining that they are christians for the above mentioned reasons.
These are were my last books studied from a non muslim source. I could not expect any more coming from a christian perspective. These men and their works which are held as the elite in Islamic History from a non muslim research do not support the confounded things you pain Islam as.
i read your quran, wouldn't that be the ultimate and clear source to it's history? isn't the quran the ultimate truthfull and CLEAR message? why do you believe and interpretation of an interpretation of your quran more then the quran itself?
The most correct and truthfull history would be the earliest, written by the quran, hadiths and Ibn Ishaq's biography of muhammed. Wouldn't you agree? and my external sources (not that i have any need for them, the quran's an argument against itself) agree with those!
If you think you know more about Islam and its history than us ? You havent even yet come close. Your studies are purely prejudice and thus your sources are prejudice.
my sources are the oldest known sources to islam... the ones you put your faith in that they are truthfull and incorruptable.
To learn about Islamic history you have to commit your self in learning the primary sources, these are The hadeeths and the Quran, Tafseer and Tulaabu Mudh'hab.
and they are full of war, persecution, rape, womanizing, slavery, fighting, intolerance and hatred... their is so much in them, that this impossible to deny that any of this didn't happen.
Loki you havent even learnt the fundamentals of the Quran yet, and then on the other hand what collection of hadeeth do you have in your possession to read and Study? My opinion on this a you havent done a twit of study of your own. Your study is solely based on another persons prejudice work.
i have sahih bukhari and sahih muslim in my possession, plus due to the internet i can look into all other hadeeth's by a muslim search engine. And every man's study is based upon another.... if you read muhammed's view of history, then you are reading his perspective not what really happend... i try reading as many perspectives as possible. Since muhammed was so darn proud of his bloodshed and sexual perversions we do not have to look much further then the quran too see how he was in love with mannon (not with God). He just like you gives the apologetics the rope that hangs him.