ArchivedThe Truth and truthsFirst off, thanks to SkipChurch for his well-thought-out post. I agree wholeheartedly: That which cannot be proven true, while not necessarily false, will always have a debate attached Well, theoretically they could all be wrong Of course, that's just me being difficult... Religion is man-made. God (if he/she/they/it) exist, are *not* man-made, I'll agree with that, however religion is. Because there is no possible way (as of yet) to prove or disprove any theological stance, I say that it's an opinion. It's easier, I suppose, and apologize for the confusion. Let's say that 600 years ago a human being was walking along a road in Germany and was attacked by a wolf. Was that person male or female? Because we don't have enough details of the story, it makes no difference what gender we think the person was - it becomes (to me) an opinion That's all that point was, and sorry for being unclear Believe it or not I have begun to do just that. I have been over at the Ex-Witch forums asking for information/assistance with confusing verses. I'm not very far along in the Bible yet, but have encountered nothing which strikes me as more than fiction. Of course, that's so far - and like I said I'm not very far along. The "evidence" is a book. That's the only evidence that Christians have. Now, I say this like it's not a big deal - obviously it is! But I remember just a few short months ago the Catholic Church getting upset because of the DaVinci Code - they were afraid that people would read it, assume it was fact (instead of fiction), and begin to treat it as such. It is my opinion that that has already happened - with your Bible. I can't prove it - heck, if the Athiests haven't been able to disprove the Bible thus far I'm certainly not dedicated enough to do so (especially because I wouldn't really see the point). More on this in a bit - the topic gets brought up a few times Example time I have a friend who is an alcoholic. He's not the "stumbling around drunk, violent" type of alcoholic. He's the kind that comes home from work and drinks beer until he passes out. He does this daily and he fills his weekend with "relaxing with a few beers". Because he is my friend and because I do care about him, I see it as my responsibility to point it out to him. Do I bring it up every opportunity I get? Nope. Do I sit there and debate the finer points of sobriety with him? Nope. When I brought it up to him I said, "Marc, I'm your friend and I wouldn't be a friend if I didn't say it. You're an alcoholic." He said, "I know, man, I just have to get back on my feet and..." ...of course, 'back on my feet' doesn't happen, and it does hurt me to see him like that, however it would harm our friendship if I harped on him about it. If I got preachy with him - regardless of how he felt about me - he would terminate the friendship because he would constantly be seeing my disappointment and disapproval. I have made my point to him and he knows my point. The conversation, for the most part, is over. Should he approach me for a solution (which he has done before), *then* that opens the door for me to make suggestions and help him 'fix' his life. That example is how I (personally) would prefer Christians to behave. Do you think in this day and age a person could possibly be any religion *other* than Christian (especially in the US) and not know what Christians believe? Perhaps children - I can see that - or even young teens. However to approach a 30 year old man wearing a Pentacle and say, "by the way, your religion is wrong. You're going to Hell. Would you like to know Jesus?" makes me sick to my stomache. I can't really explain it better than I already have - it's just (to me) extremely rude. Like walking up to someone and saying, "Hi! I'm a beautiful person. You're not. You're never going to meet an attractive member of the opposite sex. Would you like to know my plastic surgeon?" Sorry...couldn't resist I am an Ecclectic Pagan. I follow my heart and my brain. I'm also a Skeptic, which makes it incredibly difficult (at times) to believe my own religion. Since becoming a skeptic I have had to rethink my own religion (it evolves pretty regularly). Realize that every question that I've asked in regards to Christianity I have asked of my own Faith. Does that make me right? Of course not! There's no way we'll know *that* until we die That doesn't touch on the "tolerance" issue though - Paganism is an extremely broad definition. I'll put it like this: I do what my mother told me to do - treat others as they would like to be treated. I figure if I'm in someone elses shoes, I should treat them exactly how I would like to be treated were that the case. An example would be the Homosexuality issue: I'm not a homosexual, however if I was a homosexual, I'm certain that I would not like to be discriminated against. I would certainly prefer people to live my life in peace. I would also like the same rights as straight people. Then, I take those thoughts and run them through what I call "harm" factor. Is this behavior endangering another person or group of people? If the answer is "no", then I have no reason to oppose their life or lifestyle. Believe it or not, whenever I meet someone from a different lifestyle as my own, I run through that same "list". It has worked pretty well for me so far, although I will admit a tendancy to react strongly to people that seem intolerant of others. I suppose you could say I'm intolerant of intolerance I think my above comment explains it pretty well. I'm not sure if you've heard this phrase before: "Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose." What I've always read that as saying is, "you have to right to do whatever you like as long as it's not affecting me." The way that some Christians and so-called Christians behave, they certainly don't subscribe to the same attitude, so yes, I tend to get a bit touchy when dealing with them. Ideas, yes. Practices, perhaps. It depends, I would say, on *how* they are followed. I have very good friends that discuss religion in-deapth with me on a regular basis. They certainly are trying to convert me. It doesn't bother me because they don't approach my brain with a crowbar, they approach with a lockpick. The natural instinct for a human being when pushed is to push back. It works the same way with religion in my experience And therein lies the difficulty. If you view SkipChurches post, you'll understand why. If you can't prove your idea of "truth", you can't expect other people to just accept it as such. Just as my idea of what "truth" is cannot be proven to you. The impasse comes in when we are unwilling to allow the other person their right to their beliefs and opinions. As yet another smoker, I'd like to apologize to you for all of the jerks that have no sense of respect. Unless I'm in a bar (I'm not in California so I'm still allowed to smoke while I have a beer) I avoid smoking around non-smokers, and I certainly try to blow the smoke away from them should they walk past. Or refrain from taking a drag when they're walking by, hold my breath until they're out of range...etc etc etc. I also don't toss my butts on the ground - I snuff them and pocket them if there's not a trash can (or ashtray) handy. This is not out of any environmental stance, it's just that ciggy butts make the ground look worse than it already does :winK: And how that opinion is shared is a big part of how they will be recieved. I'm not sure if you're male or female, but I'm going to use a "female" example. The age-old question of "Does this make me look fat?": I am an honest person. I used to lie and have since stopped (years ago). I will tell the truth no matter how much "harm" could come my way for doing so (I suppose unless I was physically threatened, then I may lie. I haven't been in that situation so I'm not sure how I'd react). When my wife asks me "does this make me look fat" and what she's wearing does, I have a difficult time with answering and not sounding like a jerk. Yes, that question has caused me to take a few lumps - and my wife respects me for my honesty. The difference is that people do not generally approach a Christian and say, "Am I going to Hell?" Using that same scenario, the "preaching" method that some Christians use would be equivalent to me approaching my wife out of the blue and saying, "Hey! You're gaining weight, aren't you?" Instead, I could approach her with a bit more tact and say, "Honey, perhaps you should wear _______ instead of that. That doesn't really look good on you." She's smart enough to realize what that means, and she knows that I'm being honest without being insulting. Many of the Christians that have approached me in regards to my beliefs were not able to tell the difference... Ok. So what you're saying is that the only reason (let me repeat that) the only reason that you believe that Jesus listens to you is because it's written in a book? I have read *lots* of books, and if I believed everything written in them I'd have a heck of a time trying to stay sane. I submit that your above statement is leaving out some details I rarely pray (I have done so, but not frequently...say maybe once a year...maybe). Part of that stems from not knowing if there's anything/one to pray to, part of it comes from my belief that if there is/are God/dess(s) they want me to handle life myself - that's what I'm here for. Part of it is just plain stubbornness . Do I believe that there's someone/thing out there listening? Sure! If only because the thought that this is "it" and when we die our consciousness dissolves into nothingness is simply too horrifying for me to imagine. Perhaps I can explain it this way - this is a simplified version of what I went through before I discovered my own theology, so don't expect all the gaps to be filled in This is simplified, ok? Is there something after death? If there's not, that would really suck. So I think I'll believe that there is. What is it? I don't know. But it makes sense that it would be human-like, with all of the fallacies of human beings, as well as all of the wonderful things. Is it one thing or more than one? I'm more comfortable believing in "one", however I could accept more than one. I don't know, so I'll stick to one for now. Did it create everything? I don't think so. I think there's enough evidence in science to explain how we may have come about. Although a deity may (or may not) have set things in motion. Does it care? In light of the planet and humanity as it is today, that's a tough question to answer. I would say that if it *did* care, truely, it would support those that are "good" and punish those that are "bad". Because this is obviously not the case, I am left to conclude that either a) it doesn't care or b) it is observing us without interferring. ...Ok...way more than you wanted, but you get the gist. I've tried to be logical in defining what I believe. None of it is based on a book or books - it is all based on my own experiences and observations. I have observed nothing to support Christianity, and (even when I was a Christian) experienced nothing to support it either. Since becoming Pagan I have observed and experienced plenty of things that prove (to me, not to anyone else) that my beliefs are at least on the right track. Whew! Sick of me yet? This is where I have conflict - it becomes (at least what I've heard thus far) a semantics issue. I was raised Christian, and taught (by parents and pastors) that the only way we can truely be forgiven for our sins is if we recognize that it's a sin. If I'm having sex outside of marriage because I don't see anything wrong with it, obviously I don't think it's a sin (or that it's sinful behavior). Therefore, logic dictates (based on the above, of course, please correct me if I'm wrong), that by willingly committing a sin that I do not believe is sinful, I cannot be forgiven for said sin. The more in-deapth explaination is the point that I had intended in the last post, this is just an extrapolation. If that's incorrect, please use the same example to show me where I'm wrong...to me it sounds like semantics... I believe in Karma. I don't believe in a "Hell". That being said, I understand how the Christians believe (and what it says in the Bible), I just don't believe it. To me it doesn't feel right - it feels "false". It seems like societal scare-tactics rather than "truth". Of course, that's just my feelings on it. As I've said - when I can accept the Bible as being wholly true, I will be able to accept what is within it as true. I just haven't seen evidence of it's validity..that's all... To a point, yes. God (if he/she/it exists) knows how and who I am. If I were to act "out of character" in order to "get into Heaven", wouldn't that be considered selfish and...well...selling out? That would not be "me" getting into Heaven, it would be a part that I'm playing. I would be faking it. According to Christianity, if your heart's not in it, it's not gonna happen, right? If there is a God and he/she/it *does* care about me, it's going to be because I'm a good person. Not because I'm frightened or trying to achieve some higher goal - only because I try to do what's "right". Of course, what's "right" for a Christian is believing the Bible, accepting Jesus as your savior, and attempting to follow his teachings. For me what's "right" is trying to be a good person. To try to be honest and decent and to never stop trying to make the world a better place. <shrug> I think I've kinda beat this into the ground so I'll stop there. I'm pretty sure anyone that's made it this far in my post will thank me for stopping now In any *human* relationship you can't have a relationship without compromise, right? Why shouldn't there be compromise with God? Realize, of course, that compromise works *both* ways - not just me compromising my life for God, but God compromising his rules for me. <claps> I apologize for the hasty assumption on my part. Some good, some bad. Most were bad, although they were intended to be good... I think you're misunderstanding me: I loved people that are no longer in my life. I have no idea where they are, and they (as well as myself) have changed so much that we are certainly completely different people right now. I'll be honest - I don't love indiscriminantly. I don't love the child rapist that is hunting for more kids, I don't love the abusive husband, and I certainly don't love politicians (that's a joke, folks). My "conditions" (if you'd like to call them that) for my love is that you try to do the right thing and help people. If you're hurting them (and they don't want you to), I don't see that as a good person - regardless of their intentions. I'm not sure that's totally clear, but my carpal tunnel is acting up and this post is WAY too long already Yup, as I stated in the other post. I draw the line on selfishness at where it starts negatively affecting other people. That doesn't mean it's not selfish, it just means that it's what I consider "healthy" selfishness. Everyone is selfish - if you weren't you wouldn't be driving that car, chatting on the internet, etc etc etc. You would be taking every cent that you make at work and giving it to worthy causes. Likewise you would be donating every available minute of every day to volunteering at your local Mission or Salvation Army. The fact that you don't (and I don't either) tells me that you want your money and your time for the things that you want. Let me be clear on this - I see absolutely nothing wrong with being a selfish person as long as you're not harming someone else. The above statement is not intended to be an attack of any sort - it is simply my opinion based on what I have observed, and by my own definition I am certainly a selfish person. I do not take from those that don't have, and I certainly don't deny people their equal opportunities for happiness in my own pursuit of my selfish behavior. I feel that most people fit into that catagory, and see nothing wrong with that. Actually, my ability to express many emotions has been severely stunted. It's something I'm working on I have many, however I'll try to be brief and give you the top couple In the Bible (taken as a whole), God changed. He went from vengeful, judgemental, and tempermental to all-loving and wonderful. Taken in conjunction with the belief that he is "perfect" makes no sense to me. If he were perfect, there would have been no need for change. I have many smaller points that go along with the "perfection" thing, but we can save that for another thread/time. My *biggest* issue is this: A kind and loving God (IMO) would care more about how people live their lives than what they believe. To me, it *makes sense* that God would welcome me into Heaven because I was a good person rather than believing that his son could save me. A hypothetical example that I have used in the past: Suppose we have an Athiest who believes in nothing beyond our human existance. He works very hard, puts himself through college, cures cancer, and donates most of his money to helping the planet improve. He is doing these things simply because they make him feel good or that the acts themselves feel right. According to Christian Doctrine, this man is going to be punished for Eternity in the firey pits of Hell because he didn't accept Christ as his savior. I'll be honest - I don't want the love of any God that would punish a good person because of something that they simply could not believe in. To me, it makes no sense. There is the matter of the number of hands that the Bible has passed through before it got to us. I question the accuracy of any text which has been translated once - much less multiple times, and it has been commented on many times that some concepts are nearly impossible to translate into another language. It strikes me that the circumstances behind the Bible's translations, it is unlikely that it is an accurate representation of the origional texts. This, of course, brings my next point up which is (IMO) even more supportive of my beliefs (aside from the Athiest scenario - that's a big one for me) - most religions in the past (nearly all, as a matter of fact) have had close political ties. Christianity isn't really any different. Nearly all religions have political and social motives behind the structure of the Church (not just Christianity). Religion has been used as a means of thought-control and behavior control. I see many of the concepts of Christianity as potentially fitting into the socio/political advantage catagory, and in light of those views it makes the Biblical accounts even more dubious IMO. Just did Most of my "arguments" against the Bible are internal - having to do with my feelings and emotions. I realize that you do not feel the same way, so there may be considerable confusion while we both attmempt to explain our points and not get anywhere. I'm expecting this, simply because I have had this conversation too many times to expect different Yup. Pretty much. Yup. If the person was doing those good things out of a sense of betterment, rather than as a means to achieve "Heaven" (I have an equivalent, although it's not the same thing). My religion also (I feel I should state this now) has no concept of Hell or punishment after death. This is where I disagree. Just because you don't believe the same thing doesn't mean you'll be "punished" for it. It just means that your path to Heaven is different than my own. If you're a good person, it doesn't matter *what* you believe. Are you a good Christian? If you do good things and are a good person and try to do right, you'll go where you deserve to go. That's one of the foundations of my belief, actually My religion does not exclude other faiths from Heaven because of a disagreement in belief. Only if said belief is harmful to others does my God (I call it Universe or All, but I'm using God here to make it easier. If it's confusing, let me know) have issue. Hehe...that's almost funny! My religion isn't an "organized" religion. There are not really any people "in charge". The religion has absolutely nothing to gain by converting people, aside from making the world a better place (if everyone were tolerant and performed good works, it's logical that the world should improve. Of course, as the saying goes "The road to Hell...", but that's how I see it ) My religion doesn't have damnation - it's simply not believed in for most Pagans. Once again, we'll find out when we die Why should there be an end aside from continuation of the species? What makes us think that we are the only animals that are important? To our knowledge thus far, the Universe does not end - if that is the case, what makes us presume that we are the only planet (in infinite space) that supports life? The Human Race is a very selfish and narrowminded creature (taken as a whole). I believe that my point in life is to leave this planet better off than it was when I got here. If there's a God, that should mean something. If there's not, then at least my time wasn't wasted. Nah, if I was really that tweaked about the taste of crap I wouldn't have come here Seriously though - it's not places like this where I have a conflict with Christian preaching. Here it's expected and there's no reason it shouldn't be. Where I have issue with it is at work, at the store, going out to the pub for a beer. If religion happens to come up in conversation then I suppose it should be expected, but to be verbally "attacked" because I wear a pentacle isn't appropriate to my mind. I wouldn't even have a problem with a coworker saying, "Hey, James, I noticed your pentacle. If you like, give me a call tonight, we'll talk religion!" Where I take offense to it is (as happened today), one of my coworkers on the phone telling me that I'm going to Hell because I'm Pagan - I was calling his desk to speak to another person in the vicinity (that had no phone) for crying out loud! You can't tell me that that's appropriate.... ...well..ok, you can, but you can't convince me that it is |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame