Apple Pie wrote:fdjohan wrote:
Dear Apple Pie.
Actually we really do NOt need your long explanation of lexicon exegesis etc.
You have amply demonstrated that you do…
What you are doing now, making TAFSIR of verses in Al-Qur'an.
Not quite…
We are exegeting the Koran.
You can see for yourself that a tafsir
cannot hold up against an exegesis.
All that I can see that you have no KNOWLEDGE how to make tafsir of Al-Qur'an. We Muslims have way more experts about this.
Three of them: At-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir.
So don't waste your time to make any of them since you convince us nothing. Or, will you say that you are better than any of them?
This is a sensitive part when you are talking about Al-Qur'an (as you said before).
Indeed….as we have had the privilege of watching you do the “Muhammad Ali” shuffle when you were confronted with the Biblical truth as copied into your book of faith, by its authors…
Sorry Apple Pie, all your claim or theory about Qur'an copied Bible is dull.
Seems that you are trapped in your wishful thinking.
Maulana Muhammad Ali is a Muslim scholar and you are not.
So, when we are talking about Al-Qur'an, we have to use Al-Qur'an's way. NOT your way. Unless you are just wasting our time.
Your response…(i.e. your lack of a response)…has told us that we are completely on target…and that it has been very fruitful…
I respect you for your work posting any exegesis. But it turned out that you show us that you have the LACK of science about tafsir it self.
Seems that you are smart, but you know nothing about tafsir. Muslims will lough at you. Before you make any tafsir, why don't you learn about the tafsir itself.
Muslims are totaly reject you way to interpret Al-Qur'an. So you better just talk to your friends in your own believe.
If Muslims reject the exegesis, then they also must reject their own Koran.
I don't think so, because tafsir it self is EXEGESIS ( and you don't know about this).
Please improve your knowledge by reading about tafsir here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Tafseer/Ulum/
Let me copy a bit of the texts.
Tafsîr (exegesis) of the Qur'ân is the most important science for Muslims. All matters concerning the Islamic way of life are connected to it in one sense or another since the right application of Islam is based on proper understanding of the guidance from Allah. Without tafsîr there would be no right understanding of various passages of the Qur'ân.
Period.
We have seen that you are totally inept at formulating a concerted reply.
You don’t even try.
You give up.
Give up? no. This is not about give up. This is about you against the rule of how to interpret the verses of Al-Qur'an.
You are discussing Al-Qur'an means you are inside the territory of Al-Qur'an. Al-Qur'an will give you RULES and you canNOT insist your own rule.
But if you insist to contiue , ok.
Indeed, we will….
COOL!!
These are the criterias to make any TAFSIR of Al-Qur'an.
1.Be sound in belief ('aqîda).
2.Well-grounded in the knowledge of Arabic and its rules as a language.
3.Well-grounded in other sciences that are connected with the study of the Qur'ân (e.g. 'ilm al-riwâya).
4.Have the ability for precise comprehension.
5.Abstain from the use of mere opinion.
6.Begin the tafsîr of the Qur'ân with the Qur'ân.
7.Seek guidance from the words and explanations of the Prophet.
8.Refer to the reports from the sahâba.
9.Consider the reports from the tâbicûn.
10.Consult the opinions of other eminent scholars.
Now….this is most interesting…
Our exegesis has you at such a complete and utter tizzy, that you slavishly had to dip into your bag of excuses (once again), and not once, but
twice, post the same lame objection as to why you “feel” things just cannot be as they are.
Again, address the exegesis.
Don’t run away from truth.
The truth is that you do not know about Al-Qur'an. Why can't you be honest that you not the learned one? So why should we trust you talk about making any tafsir?
Don’t come into a debate room, and spew forth excuse after excuse.
I came to this forum to correct your mistake. You start this discussion by a mistake.
Have some respect for yourself.
Have some respect for the authors who penned your book of faith.
I respect my self and my Holy Qur'an by trusting the people who learn deeply about Al-Qur'an or even all the system around Islam.
Take a look at these criterias
5.Abstain from the use of mere opinion.
tha't what you're doing.
Please give us an example of the “opinion” that you are referring to…
Referring to what? There is not opinion coming from people who do not learned enough. I do NOT dare enough to make any opinion of the verses my self. That's prohibited.
'From Ibn ‘Abbas: Allah's messenger said: "He who says (something) concerning the Qur'an without knowledge, he has taken his seat of fire" ‘. [Ibn Taimiya, p.105, from Tirmidhi, who says it is hasan sahlh.]
Gee..see how my own Prophet(saw) hates people to interpret Qur'an without any knowledge about it.
6.Begin the tafsîr of the Qur'ân with the Qur'ân.
You began with your own Bible.
Dead wrong.
Did you even bother to read our exegesis?
Or….did your eyes glaze over when you saw the Arabic explained in front of your very eyes, fully referenced and completely verifiable…
Your exegesis is nice and I my eyes weren't glaze, and I read your exegesis. But the interpretation is base on what are in the Bible. Dead wrong.
Face it, you could not even muster a “googled” response.
Only another excuse.
Pathetic.
Ow.. you look hot.
Please be calm as a peaceful Christian.
You have been broken.
I don't think so. I said I will continue if you pass those criterias right? I am not running. I'm still here. But you have to play by the rule of Al-Qur'an. Not your's.
Just accept these facts that your book of faith proclaims:
• Jesus was never created
• Jesus is God
• Jesus is the Son of God
• Jesus was Crucified
• Jesus was Resurrected