Trinity DebateWHAT DOES THE BIBLE THINK OF JESUSi qualified that by saying "i'll look at it though." and "but if what you've just said is the point of that post, then i disagree not at all." so be patient so i can read your three page post. and deal with the massive amount of verses you presented (also known as "elephant hurling"). funny, cuz you haven't responded to my objections. you continue to tell me that i'm wrong, but you don't deal with my arguments that support what i'm saying. i could just as easily say the same thing, and accuse you of trying to find scripture to back up what you already presuppose. i interpret scripture with scripture, and read the Word by exegesis, not eisegesis. the very fact that we have different views from the same passages shows this to be a naiive claim from you. you have your starting points, as i have mine. the question is, are they backed by scripture. and since Jesus clearly says things that no created being could ever say without being blasphemous, then it's not as simple as you're attempting to make it. is it foolish because it's foolish, or is it foolish because you've misunderstood it? definitely the latter. maybe that's my fault. i'm not talking about how God sees time compared to us. i'm talking about US seeing time as an analogy for God. please don't misunderstand me again and then proceed to call me or my ideas foolish. get your understanding right before responding. i'll just deal quickly with some of your points since they mostly are similar: regarding "Does God have a God": i answered this already. Jesus became obedient to the will of the Father and took on the nature of a servant (Phil 2:6-8 ), and became a little lower than the angels for a time (Hebrews 2:7-9). regarding the "only one God" passages: i agree that there is a distinction that's made. but how else would we have clear understanding on this? passages like Romans 16:27 would end up a little redundant and confusing if it were to read "to the only wise God, through God, be the glory forever." and indeed, other passages would get even more confusing. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of (God) and of (God) and of (God)." there must be some distinction for clarification. and the context of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite. regarding the "firstborn" of all creation: i can't believe you're using this. "the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence. firstborn is also a title that is transferable: Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB) Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)." Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created." here's also an answer from Jonathan Sarfati: "Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son. ‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things. Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28 ). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7). Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7). This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old." regarding all the rest of your post, you can keep cutting and pasting all these HUNDREDS of verses and information from a bunch of websites, and keep trying to keep the real arguments and difficulties at bay with this "elephant hurling", but i'm gonna keep going for one point. Jesus made claims that were He not Divine, He blasphemed against God. why don't you actually talk to me, instead of hiding behind all this cutting an pasting from websites? interesting. Jesus claims to be the Saviour of the world (John 3:16-17), and God says in Isaiah 43:11 "I even I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no Savior." according to this, in order for Jesus to be our Savior, He HAS to be our God. will you please answer what i have written in the other posts, and respond to my objections and refutations, instead of just posting a million passages and making me go through them and spend countless time refuting them. like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them. |
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