Trinitarianism is a nonbiblical doctrine"
Trinitarianism is only nonbiblical if you come to it from a nonbiblical perspective. Many of us have shown in many, many ways how the Bible supports itself by use of the original Hebrew and Greek words. The translations do sometimes cause the original way the verse was written to be lost.. but it in no way changes the meaning.
Genesis 1:26 for example, says "Let us make man in our image in our likeness". In the original, the word used for God is the plural word Elohim.. translated as God in our versions, it gives the impression of one.. yet in the original, it's clearly a multiplicity word.. and should read "And God (Elohim) said, Let US make man in OUR image, in our likeness" And so God (singular) created Man, in His own image.
Now I would also like to know what your source was for what you have written Omya, as most of it is not Christian thinking at all, so whoever gave it to you, is addressing the supposed contradictions from a thoroughly non christian understanding and therefore is confused in his/her explanations.
Let me show you.
Did Jesus have two Fathers?
The assumption here, is of three separate persons. Unless you can believe in the Triune Godhead, that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, this will always be a stumbling block. It's not a matter of artificial insemination at all. The moment you reduce the virgin birth to a matter of artificial insemination, you are reducing God to nothing more than a human being. If as Christians believe and the Bible teaches.. Jesus is God, then it is possible to see that God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, both played roles in the incarnation, as did God the Son. Again, it's not three separate Beings, it's One Being, three Persons. They are all unique and separate, but yet THE ONE GOD.. so God was His Father is the way it is written.. See how Jesus also describes it in John 3:16
"For GOD so loved the world, HE gave HIS only SON..."
See, the personages that make up the God head can be used interchangably, Jesus is described as conceived by the Holy Spirit and He does call God His Father, but doesn't this just point to the truth of the God head even more?
As God, there is no artificial insemination theory at all.
Now.. you do say SOME Christians.. yes there are different Christians who believe different things about some doctrines, or who practise Christianity in different ways to me.. but that is absolutely no different to Islam, and so I can say that MOST Christians would totally deny and be very upset if you shared the idea that the Holy Spirit was mainly an agent of the Father.
2. How many Spirits are there?
Can you see how knowing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, makes these verses make sense. There is One Spirit .. yet Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are all called Spirit.
But if God is Spirit.. then won't Father, Son and Holy Spirit also be Spirit? Jesus told the Woman at the Well in John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and His worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth. and notice, Jesus did NOT say "God the Father.. He just referred to Him as God" This entire section is not speaking about God the Father, He states He will ask the Father to give her water, that will cause her never to thirst again, so she can worship in spirit and in truth, as true worshippers do, then he calls GOD IS SPIRIT. Remember the Bible speaks of ". The Word being made flesh and living amongst us John 1:1 Jesus as God was Spirit..but the IMMORTAL INVISIBLE GOD, became visible when He clothed Himself in a human body.
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the ONLY God, be honour and glory for ever and ever Amen! I Timothy 1:17 and then compare that with 1 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached amongst the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up into glory."
Yet remember, the mystery of godliness that Paul is talking about is that.. though God the Son was made flesh.. He never ceased to be God the Father, and God the Spirit.
One last point, you also need to read the context of the verses you are reading and quoting to see why certain phrases are used in certain places.. so some things like God is Spirit, Jesus The Lord is THE Spirit, ( is how it is written.. the use of the THE in there changes it's meaning from "Jesus is Spirit.. GOD IS SPIRIT.. the LORD is THE SPIRIT is how they are described. Calling God spirit is only possible as all are still proclaiming one important truth "THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD"
How can the Son, not have any power except what the Father gives Him, and How can the Son not know as much as the Father? What about the inequality of the Son and the Father?
I've grouped these all together as it's easy to answer them separately.
Why did God the Son limit Himself? One Scripture says it all
Philippians 2:5-8
Your attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus, Who, being in very nature, God, did not consider equlity with God, something to be grasped. But made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness, and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death - even death on a cross. "
We have discussed this before Omya. Jesus is the God-Man. He is very God of very God and very man of very man. As God, He never limited Himself, He could not for He changes not. Yet, as man, He chose to humble himself, limit himself and even to die.. to bring about our salvation. He chose to limit himself whilst a human, and He used His relationship to the Father as the reason for this limitations.. He constantly gave His Father the glory. The Father identified the Son publicly. The Holy Spirit strengthened Him. When he died on the cross, the Father turned His back on the Son's humanity, but not on His Godhood. In order for God to bring about man's salvation, the sacrifice had to be a man. Romans 8:3 states "For what the Law was powerless to do, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. "
The man Christ Jesus chose to do the Will of the Father. There is equlity, but there is also Submission in the God Head. The Son is in Submission to the will of the Father, and does what He tells Him too, the Holy Spirit is in submission to the Father and Son, in that He takes the words of God the Father and God the Son, and makes them known to us. Does submission mean inequlity? No. In todays world, where a woman is told to be in submission to her husband, it's not that she is not equal with him. it is that there are differing roles, but equality in those roles. So with Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Though each have a different role, each are and will eternally be ONE GOD.
When Jesus in John 14:28 is speaking, He is speaking as the SON of MAN.. who was certainly lower than God the Father. His life as the Son of Man was one of example .. it showed us the way to live in Submission to God the Father. That Father and SON in the God head are equal can be seen in these verses without any doubt.
John 1:18, 8:58, 10:30, 14:9, 17:5. In Romans 9:5, Colossians 2:2, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20 cf Isaiah 9:6.
I think I showed, that the Son of God, knew the thoughts of man, knew they were out to kill him, slipped from amongst them, knowing his time had come, gave up his spirit... shows that whilst His role as Son of Man limited Him voluntarily, He never stopped being the SON of GOD and was always in control, even at the crucifixion.
Did God the Son die?"
We discussed this in detail in the other forum topic, so you may like to refer to my comments there
How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the Begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning.
Again, Omya, this has to be understood that the God-Man Jesus Christ was just that.. both God and Man. Yes, as a Man, there was a point in history, where He was born of a woman.. where He put on flesh and came and lived with us. But, as God the Son He was in the beginning with God and was God.
Begotten can be read two ways.. as in created, which I know you believe as part of Muslim Theology, with it's assertions in Surah 3:59 The similtude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created Him from dust, then said to Him, "Be" and He was".
It can also mean "one and only" and this is the translation of the Greek Word you will find in modern translations. Why? is this a corruption? No, it's an alternative meaning to the word in the original manuscripts and it explains it more clearly. Jesus is God's One and Only Son..
So what does begotten mean in the text? Does it mean created? No, because the early church said he was begotten, not created!.(Niacene Creed) If that is so, begotten must mean something else.
The use of the word came into most significance when used as part of the Niacene Creed to counteract Arian heresay which said attempted to explain the GOD-MAN Jesus by saying that "only the Father is truly God and the Son was essentially diffrerent from the Father. He did not exist before He was begotten of the Father and didnot possess the divine qualities of immortality, soveriengity and perfect wisdom, goodness and purity. He was produced by the Father as a creature, yet as creator of the rest of creation the Son existed "apart from all things".
This Theology came from the Greeks of the time (AD 318) Arius, from where the heresay came from, had a sharply logical mind and appealed to biblical texts to support his arguements. (Such as in John 17:3, where God is described as God, the only true God. and Colossians 1:15, where Jesus is described as the first born of all creation.)
The response of Christendom at the time was united against this heresay. Emperor Constantine called for a Council of Church elders to discuss the heresay and it's impact on christendom. The result was the Creed of Niacea which later, and with some modifications in AD 451 became known as the Niacene Creed.
Later, when other heresays started trying to divide the nature of the God-Man into two completely separate natures, instead of seeing that He was BOTH God and Man at the same time another Council and another creed was penned as a statement of faith against the heresies entering the church.
This one known as the Chalcedonian Creed states (and written in AD 451)
We all with one voice, confess our Lord Jesus Christ one and the same Son, at once complete in Godhead, and complete in Manhood. Truly God and truly Man, consisting of a reasonable soul and body, of one substance with the Father, as regards his Godhead, of one substance with us, as regards his manhood. Like us in all things, apart from sin, begotten of the Father before the ages as regards His Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation born from the virgin Mary, the God-bearer, as regards his manhood. one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only -Begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, or without separation. The distinction of natures being in no way abolished by the union, but rather the characteristic property of each nature being preserved, and coming together to form one person (prosopon) and one entity (hypostasis) not as if Christ were parted or divided into two persons."
In the usage here begotten, means of completely the same substance as.. proceeding out from. It doesn't mean created out of dust as Adam was, it means that in eternity the Son proceeded out of the Father, but was of exactly the same substance as.. no mother was necessary.. He was begotten of the Father, not of Father or Mother. (Son of God) Yet in his human form, He was born of the virgin mother.. born in an earthly way of an earthly mother.. but without a father. (Son of Man).
I'm closing this post here Omya, but something to think on. I'll continue with your questions later. It's the words of one of my favourite songs by a Christian singer called Michael W Smith.
It's called "Mary did you know"?
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
Did you know
That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
Did you know
That your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered
Will soon deliver you
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
Did you know
That your baby boy will calm a storm with His hand?
Did you know
That your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
And when you kiss your little boy
You've kissed the face of God
Mary, did you know?
The blind will see
The deaf will hear
And the dead will live again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the Lamb
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy is Lord of all creation?
Did you know
That your baby boy will one day rule the nations?
Did you know
That your baby boy is heaven's perfect Lamb?
This sleeping child you're holding
Is the Great I Am
by Reba McEntire
I think it says it all for me. [/b]