ArchivedSome Contraversies Of The Crucifixion Discussed...Greetings, Scorpion.
Now concerning your assertion: That Jesus claimed to be [Almighty] GOD!! John 10:30-36 ... In these verses, Jesus claims to be "the Son of GOD"! Amen! This was the revelation that Peter received from Jesus' Father "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." ... it is the revelation that the 'church' is built on. [Matt 16:16-18] Jesus claimed to be God's Son on more than one occasion. [e.g. John 9:35, Mark 14:61-62, etc] The apostles and disciples of Christ propagated this claim, again and again. [e.g. Acts 9:20, 2 Cor 1:19, Heb 4:14, Mark 1:1, John 1:49] And as Colin Brown, Systematic Theologian of the conservative Fuller Seminary in California, so succinctly and correctly stated: "The crux of the matter lies in how we understand the term Son of God. ... The title Son of God is not in itself an expression of personal Deity or the expression of metaphysical distinctions within the Godhead. Indeed, to be a ‘Son of God’ one has to be a being who is not God! It is a designation for a creature indicating a special relationship with God. In particular, it denotes God’s representative, God’s vice-regent. It is a designation of kingship, identifying the king as God’s Son." (Ex Auditu 7, 1991, p. 88 ). Concerning John 8:58 :- Firstly and obviously, John 8:58 does not say "Before Abraham was, I am GOD" In fact, no where in chapter 8, do we find Jesus ever saying "I am GOD". Many trinitarians try to make a claim that Jesus was claiming to be GOD by saying "ego eimi" "I am" in John 8:58! They somehow believe that there is some connection between John 8:58 and Exo 3:14!! i.e. EHYEH ASHER EHYEH This claim is both fallacious and erroneous. For starters, EHYEH is not GOD's name! It is an epithet of GOD's perpetuity, GOD's endlessness, GOD's unchangeableness. GOD's name [the tetragrammaton YHWH] actually appears in verse 15. (Exodus 3:14-15) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Now seeing that that the NT including the Gospel of John was written in Greek, let's for argument sake, imagine that Jesus was indeed quoting Exodus 3:14. All anyone has to do is pick up a Greek OT, i.e. the Septuagint (LXX, completed about 132 BC and used as "the Bible" by the First, Second, and Third Century Christians), turn to Exo 3:14, and this is what one would read: "I am THE BEING." The phrase found in the Old Testament in Greek is, "ego eimi HO ON." (This is the translation from the volume by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton: The Septuagint with Apocrypha: Greek and English, London: Samuel Baster & Sons, Ltd., 1851). The passage goes on to say, in translation in the latter part of Exodus 3:14, "Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING "HO ON" has sent me to you." Therefore, if Jesus was claiming to be GOD Almighty who spoke to Moses, and therefore, was alluding to Exo 3:14, he would have said, "Before Abraham was, "ego eimi HO ON ... I am THE BEING" This is clearly something that Jesus does NOT do!! The Greek text of John 8:58 is not a quote of the Greek text of Exo. 3:14. There is simply NO LINK BETWEEN EXO 3:14 AND JOHN 8:58 at all! New Testament writers frequently quote the Old Testament in Greek, particularly when they are making theological points. Neither John nor Jesus cites Exo 3:14 as the Greek text reveals! Why? Because there is simply no connection between Exo 3:14 and John 8:58! Now, let me digress ever so slightly to ascertain who Jesus of Nazareth believed GOD was! Jesus was/is a Jew. He proclaimed that "salvation is of the Jews" [John 4:22]. When asked what was the first i.e. the most important of the commandments [Mark 12:28-34]. He answered with the Shema: Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel; The Lord [YHWH] our God is one Lord [YHWH]" or "YHWH is ONE" He was understood to be stating that that there is one God and that there was no other God but YHWH. This one God Jesus again and again calls 'the Father'. He describes the Father as the only GOD. [John 5:44] He calls the Father, the only true GOD. [John 17:3] Even in John 8, after the Jews described the 'One GOD' as their Father, Jesus asserts that the One GOD of the Jews was indeed his Father! [see verses 38-42] My point is, that Jesus identified solely 'one' person to be GOD. This person being his Father. He had no concept of a triune Godhead. Therefore, for Jesus to claim to be Almighty GOD, he would have to claim to be the Father. This is something he clearly never does! Back to John Chapter 8. Now what did Jesus actually say ... John 8:24-58 Firstly, let us start with (John 8:24-25) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. Now if it be true, that by Jesus saying two simple words, "ego eimi" "I am", he was claiming to be GOD, then, my question is, where did Jesus ever claim prior to John 8:24, that he was Almighty GOD! Where did Jesus ever say from the beginning, right up to this point in scripture [John 8:24] that he was Almighty GOD?? Jesus said "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" ... again, I ask "where did Jesus say from the beginning, that he was Almighty GOD"?? However, from the beginning, Jesus claimed to be 'The Son", the Messiah, etc ... (correct me if I am wrong), there is no place prior to John 8:24 where he claims to be GOD. He claimed to be the Messiah. This is what he claimed from the beginning. Jesus used the phrase "ego eimi" and there was no outcry, no attempt of stoning! In fact the Jews had to ask "Who are you?" Therefore, saying "ego eimi" cannot be a claim to deity!! Otherwise, why would they have to ask such a question? From what I have seen, the usage of ego eimi in John 8 is equivalent to "It's me!", especially, when Jesus is identifying himself as 'the Messiah'. This pattern appears elsewhere e.g. (John 4:25-26) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:28 ) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. (John 13:19) Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. (John 18:5) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. ... [Strange how the Bible translators chose not to add the word 'he' when the same phrase is used in John 8:58. Hmmm! See also verses John 18:6 & 8; Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; for other examples of the usage of "ego eimi".] In all these examples, "ego eimi" is used as a strong emphasis on identification. ... nothing to do with 'deity' at all! Even the man who was blind used this phrase, to identify himself... (John 9:9) Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. Therefore, the above examples show how ego eimi is used for a strong emphasis in identifying oneself. Jesus therefore, appears to use it, to strongly emphasize that he is the Messiah. - John 8:24,28,58, are NO EXCEPTION! So, let's have another look at John 8. Note, it does not say that they were stoning him because he claimed to be Almighty GOD. However, when we consider the crescendo of stinging rebukes and reprimands that Jesus aimed at his audience and his final amazing assertion in verses 53-58 (i.e. that he was greater than Abraham), hopefully one will see why they wanted to stone him! John 8:
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Now from verse 54-58, Jesus asserts not only that he is greater than the prophets, but that he is greater than the progenitor of the very Jewish race, namely, Abraham !! That was it! Now Jesus had gone too far! Hence they picked up stones to stone him!! ... after Jesus made such claims!! Jesus is the Messiah. He was foreordained by GOD to be the Messiah, the Saviour of the world, long before Abraham even came upon the scene i.e. before the foundation of the world. e.g. 1 Pet 1.20 (cp. Jeremiah's foreordination, Jere 1:5). Note: Jesus did NOT say that he saw Abraham, neither did he say that Abraham saw him! He said that Abraham saw his day (which he saw by faith Heb 11:13). What Jesus was claiming was that he was before Abraham (in the counsel of GOD's plan) therefore he was indeed greater than the dead prophets, and above all, being the foreordained Messiah, he was greater than Abraham. His audience could not receive this. Instead, of receiving him and acknowledging him as Messiah and Lord; they rejected his word and attempted to stone him. Its definitely not the first time that a prophet of GOD who brings the message/word of GOD ends up being a target for stoning by those who have rejected GOD's word! There you have it! There is simply no connection between John 8:58 and Exo 3:14, as the Greek text of the OT reveals. Jesus claimed that he was sent to the Jews from the One God, who the Jews calls 'the Father'. [v. 41] Jesus never claimed that he was the Father, hence, he never claimed to be Almighty GOD. He never said throughout his entire discourse in Chapter 8, that he was Almighty GOD. He claimed Messiahship. Nothing more, Nothing less. To back up my assertion, let me quote from The Doctrine of the Trinity - Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound by Sir Anthony Buzzard & Charles Harding (Lanham: International Scholars Publication,1998 ), p. 218-221 :- Now, as for all the other set of verses that you gave i.e. John 9:35-38, Luke 5, etc ... all these verses can be explained by viewing Jesus of Nazareth as GOD's anointed vice-regent, GOD's anointed plenipotentiary, GOD's anointed representative, GOD's anointed, appointed agent. Jesus as GOD's agent spoke for GOD and representing GOD to the people. Jesus did absolutely nothing of himself [8:28, cp. 5:19]; GOD worked all His signs and wonders through his Chosen One. [Acts 2:22, 10:38, John 14:10] Jesus of Nazareth, as GOD's representative, operated in the authority of GOD (even in forgiving sins). Even those who believed on him understood this. See for example ... (Matthew 9:8 ) But when the multitude saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power [authority] unto men. i.e. the man Messiah Jesus. Almighty GOD was glorified for giving such authority to Jesus of Nazareth. [Luke 5:25, Mark 2:12] Since Jesus was the promised 'Prophet' of Deut 18:15,18-19; he spoke the very words of GOD. [John 12:48-50]. Since Jesus was the promised 'Son of GOD, King of Israel', he was worshipped as such. There are many examples of kings and dignitaries in the OT being worshipped. The Bible translators cloud and obscure this fact by translating the OT word for worship, shachah, as 'make obeisance, do reverence, bow down, etc'. The NT equivalent word is proskuneo. Since, Jesus was the promised 'Prophet' [Matt 21:11, Luke 7:16, 24:19, Acts 3:22-23, etc] and the King Messiah [John 1:49, Luke 2:26, etc] he was indeed worshipped in the similar fashion as of the kings of Israel and the prophets of old [e.g. 1 Sam 24:8, 1 Kings 1:16, 23, 31, 53, 2 Kings 2:15, etc. (Matthew 18:23-26) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.] How could one expect anything less for Jesus of Nazareth! However he was worshipped as 'That Prophet', 'The Lord Messiah'. This worship is clearly distinct from the worship that belongs to GOD Almighty. GOD is worshipped as GOD! The King is worshipped as GOD's anointed one. Compare: (1 Chronicles 29:20) And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YAHWEH your God. And all the congregation blessed YAHWEH God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YAHWEH, and the king. Scorpion, I hope my reply will be of some edification to you Yours In Messiah, Adam Pastor |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame