Hi again fdjohan, sorry for the delay of my reply, the moving of house is still on, and I might be unavailable to use net for a week or so. But I will get back to you
fdjohan wrote:
Hi KAI.
Thanks for spreading hate against Islam.
Actually forums like this that make me run away from Christianity and embrace Islam.
Anyway.
I posted those things about the victims of Christianity as my first move to show people in this forum about the dark side of Christianity. That's what we call the "ballance act".
I love talking in vocus. Let's just do it then.
Kai replies:
But which dark side of Christianity; because when you refer to Christianity you need to look at original Christianity, which is portrayed by Christian Scripture, not by any later distortion.
Fdjohan wrote:
Please remember, in this discussion, WE want BALLANCE and FAIR rules.
We have right to use our own references and so are you.
We have right to ask you the SOURCES.
Kai replies:
By all means
Fdjohan wrote:
From a Muslims perspective, I can see clearly what your problem is.
1. You have no knowledge (or don't care?) about the background (history) of the verses of AL-Qur'an . I keep telling this forum not to ignore the history of the verses. I don't care you believe the term of REVELATION or not, but every verses have their own history. This thing you can't ignore.
2. You have no knowledge (or don't care?) about the history of Prophet Muhammad(saw) him-self.
3. You have no knowledge what ISlam is and even al-Qur'an it self.
Kai replies:
This is overstating your presumptions; how do you know that I have no knowledge, or do not care about the rules? What I presented were Koranic passages and Hadiths to back them up. But lets get back to it.
Are you shore that every verse has a history from which you can base your conclusions?
Fdjohan wrote:
You make your argument by looking twice at what your Bible teach you. But you attack AL-Qur'an by accusing and exposing the verses that you have no knowledge about them.
Kai replies:
Well it is not as simple as that; the New Testament does not teach me to engage in warfare, to invade or enslave people; that is a fairly easy conclusion to derive at.
Yet the Koran does include these elements. For example you are told to fight those who follow not Islam, you are told that the Jews are the worse of all creatures; you are permitted to have sex with slave girls and women captives.
None of these are included in the teachings of the New Testament; neither in the Old Testament (except unless you read the distortions of Osama Abdallah).
Fdjohan wrote:
OK For the start, I want us to talk and focusing to what we call as the TEACHING it self since you keep blaming the teaching as the fire starter of such an EVIL ACTS. Hope we will strict our self about this. to make this discussion more order. Please reply you comment to the things I posted.
Kai replies:
Cool
Fdjohan wrote:
I don't know if you've ever discuss this one or any Muslims have ever posted the peaceful act toward other human no matter what their religion are.
Kai replies:
On several occasions
Fdjohan wrote:
For this second move, I personally want to know your responses about what are given below.
Kai replies:
Ok, go ahead bro
Fdjohan wrote:
All traslation by Yusuf Ali
Quote:
6:151. Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.
Prohibited to TAKE any life without any justice and law.
Kai replies:
That is fine! Notice, that I never stated that Islam does not possess any positive values. Every religion possess values, often the same values.
Sura 6: 151 in its context does not refer to Jihad or Islam in war, but the Muslim in his general daily day; probably among Muslims; hence this verse despite its goodness does not exclude the elements of evil which I posted earlier.
Even in the Nazi regime, murder was banned, even stealing and rape; it did however not exclude the means to invade, suppress and commit genocide.
Hence Sura 6: 151 proposes excellent virtue but does not exclude evil.
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
[5]. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Kai replies:
As with the previous verse, the verse simply states the moral of any society, even Nazi Germany, even the ancient Assyrian culture. Yet this moral did not exclude the ideology which included invasion, genocide and submission.
Fdjohan wrote:
The religion of Islam condemns the killing or even the persecution of people merely because they embrace a different religion. The Quran mandates the absolute freedom of religion in a society. It does not allow Muslims to fight except for self defense and to enforce peace. It does not allow restrictions on those who disagree on religious matters. It urges the Muslims to treat such people kindly and equitably.
Kai replies:
I fail to see how you arrive to that conclusion; clear mandate is given to fight and subjugate the unbelievers:
2:193 Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.
9:123 O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you
48:29 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe (or ruthless, vehement) against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.
9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
We can simply let the Hadith’s interpret the Koranic passages:
Bukhari 4.386:
Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade." Al-Hurmuzan said, "Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau." So, 'Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al-Mughira replied, "Ask whatever you wish." The other asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master." (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu' man said to Al-Mughira, "If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah's Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah's Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday)."
Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4294:
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhajirs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them….
People of from a e.g. a Muslim background who embrace the Christian faith are to be exterminated:
Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
Bukhari volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
Bukhari volume 9, #64
Narrated Ali, "Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky, then ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you, (not a Hadith), then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will leave the faith) and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
[17]. Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).
No way to take any life without a cause.
Kai replies:
Again is this within the everyday of the Muslim in his conduct among non-Muslims or within the context of the passages we looked at earlier.
Notice that the Koran teaches Muslims to be merciful among themselves but harsh toward the non-believers:
48:29 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe (or ruthless, vehement) against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
60:8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
For those who do not do harm and evil toward Muslims, we are taught to deal with them kindly and justly.
Kai replies:
But then again what is the context and history behind this verse? In other verses they are told to fight those who believe not in Allah or perform Islam, even the Jews and Christians, until they are subdued:
9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
60:9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
So Muslims fight people for those who fight you for (their) Faith and drive them drive them out of their homes.
Kai replies:
Of course every nation is permitted to defend itself, yet this is not the same context as Sura 9: 29
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
9:123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
Muslims fight people only if they are attacked.
Kai replies:
Look at my previous reply
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
[8]. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
We are tought to come to peace for any body who wants peace with us.
Kai replies:
How do you then explain this verse:
47:35 So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam), while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds.
Fdjohan wrote:
So There are teaching about peaceful act toward people no matter what religion they are.
Kai replies:
Every religion and ideology has its room for peace
Fdjohan wrote:
I will talk about the verses you refer to us after this inshaALLAH.
Let us talk peaceful way since now.
Again now our first focus, talking about the teaching it self. So we better strict our discussion to this part first. Ok my friend?
Kai replies:
Well I have replied to your reply; I still cannot come to turns with the claim that Islam is a religion of peace!
Much like every other ideology and religion it contains elements of peace, yet that does not render Islam as a peaceful religion.
No offence bro
Remember, the intention is not to spread hatred but to expose sources for suppression as was the case with the Armenian Genocide.
As for the sources you posted, I am unable to traces its nature to its original sources