Christian/Muslim ThreadsWhat qualifies Muhamad as a prophet ?
i do not know what your view is of bukhari and muslim etc ... for me.. they are not divine books... altho they are called sahih (true) it still is man made... it is written by common men... events they heard from other common men... who are fallible... so everything in them cant be taken as the absolute truth... it is a proven fact that quite a bit of info in them is false...
And you were using them later on in your post as your advocate? This ambiguity is becoming tedious, either it is corrupt and you cannot use it period. which leaves you in a dilemma because islam then has no historical context or it shows islam for what it really is.
... the first thing i am sure that will pop up in your mind is "then how do we know which is right and which is not"... the way the scholars do it they judge the hadiths against the Quran .. and not the other way... i.e. using the hadith to confirm the Quran... if the hadith matches or si in line wiht the Quran then its ok else it isnt... also ... just because a hadith conforms with the Quran doesnt make it real... it too has to be real on its own... so ... we study the people who have relayed this hadith... and if any person in the chain of narrations is found to be unreliable ... i.e. a proven liar etc... then this hadith will be categorized in a different section... i.e. belonging to unreliable persons section ... etc....
You are arguing in circles now, this is precisely how Bukhari and Muslim determined their sahih books because their isnads were sound and it didn't contradict the koran.
now... as for the verses you brought up... the one about not raising ones voice ... let me post the entire section...
Sura 49
[Shakir 49:1] O you who believe! be not forward in the presence of Allah and His Messenger, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[Shakir 49:2] O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.
[Shakir 49:3] Surely those who lower their voices before Allah's Messenger are they whose hearts Allah has proved for guarding (against evil); they shall have forgiveness and a great reward.
[Shakir 49:4] (As for) those who call out to you from behind the private chambers, surely most of them do not understand.
[Shakir 49:5] And if they wait patiently until you come out to them, it would certainly be better for them, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
now... consider this... you are standing infront of Jesus... plz tell me honestly... would it be right for you to raise your voice in his presense??? How about if you started shouting at him??? would such behaviour towards a man of God seem right???
I do not believe Mohammed to be a man of God but a charlatan.
Why don't we look at the tafsir on that chapter:
(O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet,) This contains another kind of favorable behavior. Allah the Exalted is teaching the believers that they should not raise their voices above the voice of the Prophet . It was stated that this Ayah was revealed about Abu Bakr and `Umar. Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn Abi Mulaykah said, "The two righteous ones, Abu Bakr and `Umar, almost earned destruction when they raised their voices before the Prophet who was receiving the delegation of Bani Tamim. One of them recommended Al-Aqra` bin Habis the member of the Banu Mujashi` while the other recommended another man. Nafi` (a subnarrator) said: "I don't remember his name.'' Abu Bakr said to `Umar, `You only wanted to contradict me,' while `Umar said, `I did not intend to contradict you.' Their voices then became loud, thereupon Allah the Exalted sent down this Ayah,
[ูุฃููููููุง ุงูููุฐูููู ุกูุงู
ููููุงู ูุงู ุชูุฑูููุนููุงู ุฃูุตูููุชูููู
ู ูููููู ุตูููุชู ุงููููุจูููู ูููุงู ุชูุฌูููุฑููุงู ูููู ุจูุงูููููููู ููุฌูููุฑู ุจูุนูุถูููู
ู ููุจูุนูุถู ุฃูู ุชูุญูุจูุทู ุฃูุนูู
ููููููู
ู ููุฃููุชูู
ู ูุงู ุชูุดูุนูุฑูููู ]
(O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be thwarted while you perceive not.)'' `Abdullah bin Az-Zubayr said, "After that, `Umar's voice was so low that the Messenger of Allah had to ask him to repeat what he said so that he could understand what he was saying to him.'' `Abdullah bin Az-Zubayr did not mention the same regarding his father, Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him. Muslim did not collect this Hadith. In another narration collected by Al-Bukhari, he said that a delegation from the tribe of Banu Tamim came to the Prophet and that Abu Bakr recommended Al-Qa`qa` bin Ma`bad to be appointed as their leader, while `Umar recommended Al-Aqra` bin Habis. Muslim did not collect this narration. Al-Bukhari recorded that Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet missed Thabit bin Qays and a man said, `O Allah's Messenger! I will find out about his news.' That man went to Thabit and found him sitting at home with his head lowered and asked him, `What is the matter' Thabit said, `An evil matter!' And he said that he used to raise his voice above the voice of the Prophet . He feared that his good deeds would be useless and he would be among the people of the Fire. The man went back to the Prophet and conveyed Thabit's statement and returned to Thabit with a wonderfully good news. The Prophet said,
ยซุงุฐูููุจู ุฅููููููู ูููููู ูููู: ุฅูููููู ููุณูุชู ู
ููู ุฃููููู ุงููููุงุฑูุ ููููููููููู ู
ููู ุฃููููู ุงููุฌููููุฉยป
(Go back to him and tell him this news; you are not among the people of the Fire. Rather, you are among the dwellers of Paradise.)'' Al-Bukhari collected this Hadith with this wording. Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said, "When this Ayah was revealed,
In other words am I to believe that if you raise your voice above the prophet you are going to hell? What relevance does this have for the last 1300yrs seeing Mohammed has bseen dead for centuries?
interestingly enough everysingle image i have seen of the Virgin Mary... she is completely covered... except for her face no other part of her bare flesh is shown... its called modesty...
Maybe you should look into the history of the modern hijab, it was plagiarised from nuns working in Iran
Who vouched for Jesus?
One the 12 disciples not including John the baptist and the people gathered at the lake of Galilee that witnessed the declaration.
The 150 people who saw Him after His resurrection
The numerous people that He healed.
Nicodemus the priest.
were any of these people from God?? i.e. did God reveal to them that Jesus is how he is?? as far as i know... and read.. all these people heard from Jesus and repeated it. eg... Jesus said that he is from God.. so the people said Jesus is from God... you understand???
...for one person to confirm the other .... the 2nd person has to get his source from anyone not in contact with the first person... However if this is the criteria for confirmation of Prophethood... there was Ali... son-in-law,cousin,brother and enforcer of his last will... there was his daughter, then there were the 3 khaliphas... all these persons confirmed his Prophethood...
It seems you misunderstood me these people were not from God but they witnessed the events, saw the miraculous signs, saw angels from God and heard the voice of God attesting to Jesus.
If an angel of the Lord visited you do you believe that the angel of the Lord is acting on God's behalf?
Tell me which angel visited Ali, or Abu Bakr or Uthman? or anybody else other than Mohammed?
but i know you will discount every single one of these... but you need to know that the people you provided can also be discounted as you discount these... so once again .. how do you know that Jesus is who he claims to be?? Just because lazarus said so? or the disciples said so?...
You forget one important thing which is the bane of this thread as to how God operates. God will always tell His prophets what He will do in the future. Jesus is all over the old testament, where is Mohammed which scripture in the old or new testament even remotely hints at Mohammed?
Who on the underhand heard from God that Mohammed is from God? show me one person who could vouch for Mohammed?
actually no one... as far as i know.. but then again who heard God say Jesus is who he is??? i am not trying to avoid the question... just showing you the fallacy of your line of argument...
John the baptist did
The people of at the sea of galilee heard the declaration
...
Let's see Aaron, Joshua, the entire children of Israel fleeing from the armies of Pharoah, and witnessing the splitting of the red sea, the entire children of Israel witnessing manna from heaven. Who on the underhand can vouch for Mohammed? who?
Same as before... Moses-Aaron??? Muhammed-Ali... Johnthe Baptist-Jesus?? Muhammed-Fatima...
Jesus vouched for him. Who vouched for Mohammed?
Jesus vouched for John?? Dude.. .isnt this circular reasoning???
Pls elaborate, how is this circular reasoning? Who heard from God to vouch for Mohammed?
Seal of Prophethood....
i read the hadiths you provided.. however i must say that these are false narrations... the seal of prophethood means an end of the chain of Prophets... it is a metaphorical phrase... Just like son of God. ofcourse to you son of God is a literal phrase... but to me its a metaphorical phrase... also i doubt any muslim will agre with this hadith... all will say its false... if you remember i mentioned that hadith books are not infalliable...
I see it must be false because it disagrees with your conscience as to how islam was perceived by the islamic early fathers regardless of what the tafsir, hadiths or islamic rulings say? Then islam can never find any fault because you reject the obvious and reinterpret it in your own perspectives.
Then everything must be false that doesn't fall in line with your perception.
Sometimes I have to wonder if certain muslims see this like making a pizza, you select and discard the toppings you want.
sura 33:50
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Do you realise marrying daughters of your maternal and paternal uncles and aunts is incest and forbidden according to judaism and christianity? why on earth do you think a God who changeth not would sanction someone who blatantly makes himself an exception to these rules so that "there should be no difficulty for him" when He has never respected any individual in the two previous revelations? (pls tell me you are not this gullible)
First of all.. if you read the verse you will realise that the prohibition still stands... one cant marry the persons mentioned above... as it amounts to incest... however... God allowed it for Prophet Muhammed.. why??? I dont know..
Pls tell me you are not this gullible, do you believe God is a respecter of persons?
Why would God respect a man to tolerate and excuse his sins when God abhors sin from anybody???
Leviticus 18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor's wife, to defile thyself with her
It looks like it is one rule for Mohammed and one rule for the rest of the world, pls tell me you are not this gullible?
Q. 66: 5.
"It may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you, Muslims (who submit to Allรขh), believers, obedient to Allรขh, turning to Allรขh in repentance, worshipping Allรขh sincerely, fasting or emigrants (for Allรขh's sake), previously married and virgins.
I sincerely hope you are aware of the context of this verse, it is embarassing for a muslim.
Yes i am aware of the context... however i doubt you are... story goes as follows... some of his wives started making "noise" ...complaining .. you know...normal woman things... gossip n stuff... now if you read the before verses i.e. 66:1-6 you will know that these verses are a reprimanding... the wives "rebeled" against the Prophet... and these verses were revealed scolding those perticular wives..
I shall show you a very simple sleight of hand trick your muslim scholars used on these verses later on
How about John the baptist?
How about Zechariah?
How about Mary?
How about Mary Magdalene?
How about Joseph?
Zechariah : sorry .. i dont know which person you are refering to... maybe you could clarify a bit.. or post the relevent verses for him... thanks
Since you used to be a catholic you are unaware who Zechariah is?
as for John the Baptist... i couldnt find any verses where he is in conversation with God... as a matter of a fact.. even an angel of God.. like Gabriel...
"This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased"
I find it a little strange you claimed to be a former catholic and are unaware of simple biblical quotes, would you like to tell me what makes John the baptist a prophet in islam?
and Mary and Mary Magdalene and Joseph... Once again it wasnt God.. or the holy spirit... but Gabriel who spoke to them... who also spoke to Muhammed... So... is there any one else???
If an angel of the Lord comes to speak to you do you agree that this is coming from God? Have you heard that no one can stand in the presence of God and live?
An angel did visit Mary magdalene at the tomb of Christ and told her He is risen, but since you claim to be a former catholic I didn't think I would have to tell you this.
Where is the confirmation that Mohammed heard a single word from God other than his say so, nobody hears jibreel but him and him alone, nobody hears jibreel except Mohammed and jibreel choses to come when he is in bed with his underage wife what kind of confirmation is this?
other than the underage wife insulting part... i dont see any thing new... none of the names you provided with spoke to God per se... once again ... any other names??
"...Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, AS THE DIVINE INSPIRATIONS DO NOT COME TO ME ON ANY OF THE BEDS EXCEPT THAT OF AISHA..." Bukhari volume 3 Number 755
Tabari 39:194 "He (Muhammad) used to visit her (Mariyam) there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property."
Mariyam is also responsible for sura 66 where he threatens Aisha and Hafsa with doom if they come against him, Hafsa caught him in bed with Mariyam he promised her he wouldn't do it again as expected Hafsa told the incident to Aisha who confronted the prophet, but alas allah came to admonish his prophet for denying himself what he has made lawful (raping/sleeping with what his right hands posssess), and had him threaten Hafsa and Aisha with jibreel and virgin wives if they don't keep quiet.
ok... i'll post the incident... it is lengthy...
The Holy Prophet used to drink a glass of honey-syrup whenever he visited the apartment of Zaynab. A-isha and Hafsa became resentful, and A-isha devised a plot. Knowing the Holy Prophet's dislike of unpleasant smells she held her nose when he came to her apartment after drinking a glass of honey-syrup prepared by Zaynab, and accused him of having eaten the produce of a very ill-smelling tree. When she accused him of having eaten maghafir (a nauseating herb) the Holy Prophet said that he had taken only honey. She said: "The bees had fed on maghafir." When he visited Hafsa she also acted just like A-isha. Displeased with their obnoxious behaviour the Holy Prophet vowed not to eat honey any more. This is recorded by Bukhari in his commentary on Tahrim, in his Sahih, Vol. 3, p. 136. In the same place are recorded several traditions as related by Umar bin Khattab stating that the two women, A-isha and Hafsa were insolent and haughty towards the Holy Prophet.
On a day assigned to Hafsa, when she was not found in her apartment as she went to her parent's house, the Holy Prophet spent the night with Marya, the coptic girl, presented to him by the ruler of Egypt, who became the mother of his son, Ibrahim. To calm the quarrelsome bad temper of Hafsa he vowed that he would have no more to do with Marya.
The wives of the Holy Prophet were expected to show a higher standard in behaviour, as they were in the company of the superior most teacher of manners, social behaviour and etiquette.
The Holy Prophet's mind was sorely distressed by the obnoxious behaviour of A-isha and Hafsa and he renounced the society of his wives for one month. Verse one was revealed to say that as Allah has allowed him honey and Marya, he did not have to forsake any of them.
If any vow prevents from doing good or acting rightly one should expiate the vow, but not refrain from doing good deeds. For the expiation of oaths and vows see commentary of Ma-idah: 89 and for the vain oaths and vows Baqarah: 225.
Verses 3 to 5 refer to A-isha and Hafsa who were envious and jealous to the point of sickness against the Holy Prophet's refined and highminded wives. Once Hafsa came to know about a very personal matter concerning the Holy Prophet which he thought should not be made public, therefore he asked her not to publish it. But she at once rushed to her friend A-isha and whispered to her a version which was in great part untrue. Hafsa who betrayed confidence and A-isha who encouraged the betrayal were commanded to turn in repentance to Allah. If they were to resist repentance and amends, they would be abetting each other's crime but could not harm the most perfect messenger of Allah whom all the spiritual forces always surrounded to protect from every type of slander and falsehood. Please refer to Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6 p. 294 and Ibn Sad's Tabaqat, vol.8, p. 115.
so you see... it isnt as how you portray it to be.... this is only because of the anti islamic literature yu read...
Where did you obtain this explanation?
This is the sleight of hand trick I was going to show you:
I hope you are aware that Muslim was a student of Bukhari ie the hadiths of Bukhari predate those of Muslim
This is what the tafsir on sura 66 says http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=66&tid=54321 [] my comments
Allah censures His Prophet for Prohibiting Himself from what He has allowed for Him In the Book of Vows
Al-Bukhari recorded that `Ubayd bin `Umayr said that he heard `A'ishah claiming that Allah's Messenger used to stay for a period in the house of Zaynab bint Jahsh and drink honey in her house. (She said) "Hafsah and I decided that when the Prophet entered upon either of us, we would say, `I smell Maghafir on you. Have you eaten Maghafir' When he entered upon one of us, she said that to him. He replied (to her),
(No, but I drank honey in the house of Zaynab bint Jahsh, and I will never drink it again.)'' [For the love of God whose wife would take offence at her husband for drinking honey, unless of course it was the scent of another woman on you !!] Then the following was revealed;
(O Prophet! Why do you fobid that which Allah has allowed to you) up to,
(If you both turn in repentance to Allah, your hearts are indeed so inclined in reference to `A'ishah and Hafsah.
(And (remember) when the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives,) which refers to this saying,
(But I have drunk honey.) Ibrahim bin Musa said that Hisham said that it also meant his saying,
(I will not drink it anymore, I have taken an oath to that. Therefore, do not inform anybody about it.) [ Absolutely incredible " do not inform anyody that I have drunk honey and I have taken an oath not to drink honey"]
Al-Bukhari also recorded this Hadith in the Book of Divorce; then he said, "Al-Maghafir is a type of sap, and in Ar-Rimth (a type of citrus) its taste is sweet...'' Al-Jawhari said, "The `Urfut is a tree of the shrub variety, which secretes Maghfur.'' Muslim collected this Hadith from `A'ishah in the Book of Divorce in his Sahih, and his wording is the same as Al-Bukhari in the Book of Vows. In the Book of Divorce, Al-Bukhari recorded that `A'ishah said, "Allah's Messenger liked sweets and honey. After performing the `Asr prayer, he used to visit his wives, going close to them. So he went to Hafsah, daughter of `Umar, and stayed with her more than his usual stay. I (`A'ishah) became jealous [ note this very important] and asked about that. It was said to me, `A woman of her family [why wasn't the woman identified?] sent her a small vessel of honey as a gift, and she gave a drink to Allah's Messenger made from it.'
I said, `By Allah, we will contrive a plot against him [all because he ate honey? pls!!!].' I said to Sawdah bint Zam`ah, `When the Messenger visits you and draws close to you, say to him, `Have you eaten Maghafir' And when he says to you, `No', then ask him, `What is this odor' He will say to you, `Hafsah [You mean Hafsah's slave girl Mariyah who is the alledged woman of Hafsah's family?] has given me a drink of honey [ if honey is a code word for Maryah/Mariah/Maria it all makes perfect sense] .'
Then you should say to him, `The honeybees might have eaten from Urfut, and I will also say the same to him. Safiyyah, you should also say this.' Sawdah later said, `It was under compulsion that I had decided to state that which you told me; soon, by Allah, he was standing at my door.' So when Allah's Messenger came near her, she said, `O Messenger of Allah! Did you eat Maghafir' He said, `No.' She again said, `Then what is this odor' He said,
(Hafsah gave me honey to drink.) She said, `The honeybees might have eaten from `Urfut.')'' `A'ishah continued, "When he came to me I said the same to him. He then visited Safiyyah and she also said similar to him. When he again visited Hafsah, she said, `O Messenger of Allah, should I not give you that (drink)' He said,
(I do not need it.) Sawdah said, `By Allah! We have prevented him from drinking honey.' I said to her, `Keep quiet!''' Muslim also recorded this Hadith, but this wording is from Al-Bukhari. In the narration of Muslim, `A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah used to hate to have a bad odor coming from him'' This is why they suggested to him that he ate Maghafir, because it causes a bad odor. When he said,
(No, I had some honey.) They said that the bees ate from a tree that is called Al-`Urfut, which has Maghafir gum, suggesting that this is the reason behind the bad odor they claimed was coming from him. The latter narration, collected through `Urwah from `A'ishah, mentions that it was Hafsah who gave the Prophet the honey [Mariah was staying at her house]. In another narration collected from `Ubayd bin `Umayr, from `A'ishah, it was Zaynab bint Jahsh [ Oh remember her Zaid's (Mohammed's adopted son wife now Mohammed's ] who gave the honey to the Prophet , while `A'ishah and Hafsah were the plotters. Allah knows best. Some might say that they were two separate incidents. However, it is not likely that the Ayat were revealed about both incidents [ Bear this in mind ], if indeed they were two separate incidents.
Allah knows best. A Hadith that Imam Ahmad collected in the Musnad mentions that [ this becomes very interesting this is the Bukhari hadith from vol 3 number 648 that mentions Maria]`A'ishah and Hafsah were the plotters. Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "I was eager to ask `Umar about the two ladies among the wives of the Prophet , about whom Allah said,
(If you two turn in repentance to Allah your hearts are indeed so inclined Then I performed Hajj along with `Umar, and on our way back from Hajj he went aside (to relieve himself). I also went aside along with him carrying a tumbler of water. When he finished and returned, I poured water on his hands from the tumbler and he performed ablution. I said, `O Commander of the faithful! Who were the two ladies among the wives of the Prophet , to whom Allah said,
(If you two turn in repentance to Allah your hearts are indeed so inclined)' `Umar said, `I am astonished at your question, O Ibn `Abbas.''' - Az-Zuhri (a subnarrator) said that `Umar did not like the question [ask yourself why?], but he still answered it, saying that they were `A'ishah and Hafsah.
"Then `Umar went on relating the story and said, `We, the people of Quraysh, used to have authority over our women. But when we came to live with the Ansar, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women. At that time, I was residing at the house of Umayyah bin Zayd, in Al-`Awali. Once I got angry with my wife, and she talked back to me; I disliked her answering me back. She said, `Why do you dislike me talking back to you By Allah, the wives of the Prophet talk back to him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day, until nightfall.' Then I went to Hafsah and asked her, `Do you talk back to Allah's Messenger' She said, `Yes.' I asked, `Does any of you keep Allah's Messenger angry all day long, until night' She replied, `Yes.'
I said, `Whoever among you does this is a ruined, losing person! Doesn't she fear that Allah may get angry for the anger of His Messenger and, thus, she will be ruined Don't ask Allah's Messenger too many things, and don't retort him in any case. Demand from me whatever you like, and don't be tempted to imitate your neighbor, for she is more beautiful than you, and more beloved to Allah's Messenger than you.' He meant `A'ishah.
I, and an Ansari neighbor of mine used to visit the Prophet in turns. He used to go one day, and I another day. When I went I would bring him
the news of what had happened that day regarding the revelation and when he went, he used to do the same for me. In those days it was rumored that the Ghassan (tribe) were preparing their horses to invade us. My companion went and returned to us at night and knocked at my door. I came out to him. He said that a grave thing happened. I asked him, `What is it Have Ghassan come' He replied that it was worse and
more serious than that, adding that Allah's Messenger had divorced all his wives. I said, `Hafsah is a ruined loser! I expected that would happen some day.' So I dressed myself and I performed the Subh prayer. I went to Hafsah and found her weeping. I asked her, `Has Allah's Messenger divorced all of you' She replied, `I don't know. He is there alone in the upper room.' I went to the upper room and asked a black slave of the Prophet to ask for his permission to see me, and the boy went in and then
came out saying, `I mentioned you to him and he remained silent.' I then went out and came to the Minbar and found a group of people around it and some of them were weeping. I sat with them for some time, but could not endure the situation. So, I requested to the boy, `Will you get the permission for `Umar' He went in and then came out saying, `I mentioned you to him, but he did not reply.' So, I went to Minbar and sat
with the people who were sitting by the Minbar, but I could not bear the situation, so I went to the boy again and said, `Will you get the permission for `Umar' He went in and brought the same reply as before. When I was leaving, behold, he called me saying, `Allah's Messenger has granted you permission.' So, I entered the Prophet's room, greeted him with the Salam and saw him lying on a mat without bedding on it, and the mat had left its mark on the body of the Prophet.
I said, `Have you divorced your wives, O Allah's Messenger' He raised his eyes to me and replied no. I said, `Allahu Akbar. O Allah's Messenger! We, the people of Quraysh used to have the upper hand over our women.
But when we came to Al-Madinah, we found a people whose women had the upper hand over them. Our women started learning this behavior from them. Once, I got angry with my wife, and she talked back to me. I disliked that behavior from her and she said, `Why do you dislike that I talk back to you By Allah, the Prophet's wives talk back to him and one of them would ignore him the whole day, until the night.' I said to her,
`Whoever does this among them is the ruined loser! Does she feel safe from Allah getting angry with her on account of His Messenger's anger In that case, she would be ruined.' On that the Prophet smiled. I then said,
`O Allah's Messenger! I went to Hafsah and said to her, `Do not be tempted to imitate your companion (`A'ishah) for she is more beautiful than you and more beloved to the Prophet.' The Prophet smiled again. When I saw him smiling, I said, `Does the Messenger feel calm' He said,
`Yes.' So, I sat down and cast a glance at the room, and by Allah, I couldn't see anything of importance, except three hides. I said, `Invoke Allah, O Allah's Messenger, to make your followers prosperous, for the Persians and the Byzantines have been made prosperous and given worldly luxuries, even though they do not worship Allah.' The Prophet sat upright and said,
(O Ibn Al-Khattab! Do you have any doubt These people have been given rewards of their good deeds in this world only.) I asked the Prophet , `Please beg Allah's forgiveness for me, O Allah's Messenger.' The Prophet swore that he would not go to his wives for one month, because of his severe anger towards them [ RIGHT HERE is where your tafsir further insults the intelligence of it's readers and deviates from the hadith, at this stage in the hadith this is what the hadith says:"Bukhari vol 3 648 "...The Prophet did not go to his wives because of the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him (for his oath that he would not approach Maria if they had bothered to include this part of the hadith it would have opened a can of worms the reader would have known they were being taken for a fool, the prophet was angry because Hafsa had told Aisha he slept with Hafsa's maid Maria/Mariyah/Mariah
His wives had confronted him about it he had threatened them with divorce, his followers glossed over it and fabricated elaborate hadiths about honey and citrus fruits to cover the obvious imperfection in the prophet's character
Imagine for a second you tell your wife her father wants to see her and while she is away you sleep with her maid, your wife comes back quickly when she finds out her father doesn't want to see her and finds you in bed with her maid she naturally goes hysterical you beg her to be quiet and not to tell anybody and you promise her it won't happen again [this is the oath Mohammed was talking about], she tells your other wife who in turn tells all the rest and they make a scene, your followers in their desperation to venerate you as whiter than white hush hush the incident and even go as far as to fabricate hadiths to exonerate you like your book says " allah is the best of deceivers]])" , until Allah the Exalted and Most Honored censured him.'' Al-Bukhari, [ Your tafsir didn't even give you the Bukhari hadiths so you don't check it ]
If you believe a wife gets upset with her husband because he drank honey you are more gullible than I thought, the only honey your prophet found was between the legs of Mariah!!!
Pls read my post, this was not my point I am talking about Mary the mother of Jesus being called Aaron's contemporary sister in the quran. Do you have a tafsir that tells you it's a different Imran, or you are just saying this to get out of a tight spot?
I never cop out... if i do not know something i say so.. as for this verse ... the Imran spoken of here is not the same Imran as Moses' father... but Mary's father...
Who is talking about Imran, did you read my original post, I was talkin of Mary being Aaron's contemporary sister, where does Imran fit in this?:
"Carrying the child, (Jesus), she (Mary) came to her people, who said to her: "Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot."" sura 19:27-28
It seems it is either corrupt or being interpreted wrong, do you know who Abu Huraira is?
it is neither... the stone running away is false... no corruption or misinterpretation... just outright false...
Does it contradict the koran?
Do you realise it is the basis for sura 33:69
Are you sure you reject this islamic doctrine because it contradicts the koran or because it contradicts your God given common sense devoid of 6th century arabic myths?
What does it tell you about the early islamic fathers and how they constructed islam, do you realise none of the koranic manuscripts can be traced beyond the lifetimes of Bukhari and Muslim, put two and two together you will realise it is the same people who wrote the koran you currently have in your possession that wrote those hadiths if they included lies in it, what about your koran?
Explain this conundrum to me why is it a woman cannot marry up to 4 husbands?
for the sole reason of parentage...
if this woman who has more than 1 husband... has a son... whose son will it be??? the 1st man's?? or the 2nd man's??? how will the inheretance reach him? who is the real father? OTOH every child knows who its mother is... there is no denying that... but selecting the real father from a multitude??? well.... Hope that answers your query...
No this does not answer my query, where is your islamic jurispundence to relay to me this answer?
So men can have more than one wife because they can be guaranteed that they are the father? So women cannot have more than one husband because they cannot guarantee who the father is, your religion is all about guaranteeing who the father is so the man can get double the portion of the female, since he is the maintainer of the woman and is licensed to flog her when she is out of order, how can you expect anybody to tolerate this misogynist attitude of a religion.
Do you realise you are living in the 21st century and can utlilise a blood test to determine who the father is, maybe in retrospect then islam belongs in the 6th century, and I no way sanction adulery and fornication by polygamy or polyandry.
Quote:
how do you define rape??? can a husband rape his wife????
???
its exactly as i said... can a husband rape his wife??? what is the meaning of rape??
rape1 โn. 1 a act of forcing a woman or girl to have sexual intercourse against her will...
You are now giving me the definition of rape as if it supports your point of view, do you realise in the west men can be brought up on rape charges against their wives? Do you realise forcing a woman to have sex against her will married or not is rape?, I know your religion says angels will send curses on her till the monring if she doesn't give her husband sex because it seems allah had nothing better to do than guarantee the sexual satisfaction of his followers.
Quote:
I wonder... is God logical??? is trinity logical??? is God becoming man logical??? there are 3 persons and these 3 are one... hmmmm .... Point is "double standards"
Let me put it in this way:
If you were to speak into a tape recorder, would you agree that tape recorder would be admissable in a court of law as your voice as though emanating from you?
This is how we view Jesus, as the Word of God, as if God Himself was on earth in human form (the tape recorder) speaking as God.
True... i agree with you here... Jesus a messanger/prophet of God. He relayed the message... no questions here... but the problem that comes is when this "tape recorder " is considered as eternal and seperate from God and yet is God at the same time... do you understand my confusion???
Tell me something who is the Father of Jesus according to your koran?
Who should we assign as His Father?
When your koran says the jews wanted to kill Jesus what do you think He did? He must have done something, people don't want to kill for no reason.
Islam respects Paul
any ref plz??
sura 13:14 Set forth to them, by way of a parable, the (story of) the Companions of the City. Behold, there came Messengers to it.
[14] When We (first) sent to them two Messengers, they rejected them: but We strengthened them with a third: they said, "Truly, we have been sent on a mission to you."
Let us read what is written in the explaination of Ibn Katheer, the great islamic scholar and Imam about those who are sent by Allah to the different cities to spread the word of Christ:
He says, that the first two apostles sent to the city are "Yuhana" (John) and "Shammon" and the third who was sent to them to strengthen them after they were rejected was Boulos (PAUL in arabic).
Let us move to the Sirah (Biography of Muhamed) and Haddith (his quotes):
From the book "El-Sirah Al-Nabaweya" for the Ibn Hisham, the most respected reference about Muhamed's life and biography by muslims:
From the chapter of "Sending messanger by Muhamed to the Kings", page 870:
Translation:
The prophet of Allah went to his friends and told them: Allah has sent me as a mercy !!!! to the all nations, so deliver my message and don't refuse to go like the apostles of Issa (Jesus). His friends asked him: How did they refuse?
Muhamed replied: Some of them obeyed to be sent and some of them refused, so Issa (Jesus) prayed to Allah. WHen they woke up the next day, they found themselves speaking with the tongues and languages of the nations they were supposed to be sent to. Issa (Jesus) sent Butrus (Peter) and Boulos (Paul), who was not a desciple but a follower of Issa (Jesus) to Romia (Rome)....( he goes on to mention some names of the apostles, most of them historically wrong like Elijah the prophet among the desciples) ....
Away from the usual mistakes, let us summarize our findings:
1- The Quran talked about the apostles of Jesus Christ as the apostles of Allah, sent by Allah !!!
2- Allah sent St.Paul to Antakia (Antioch) to strengthen the two apostles there ( John and Shammon )
3- Quran mentions that the apostles of Jesus, sent by Allah, are on the right belief รฃรฅรรรฆรค and they seek no earthly profit.
4- The prophet is the Sirah book said that St.Paul is a follower of Christ Allah sent him with Peter to Rome.
A muslim has to chose one of the following options:
1- St.Paul is an honest apostles, sent by the command of Allah!!!
2- Muhamed is a liar or ignorant as he didn't know the "corruption" of Paul and the Quran is false as it describes him as an apostle!!!
Note that the claims about Paul by muslims started only these days. Ancient muslims apparently knew their religion better and knew that St.Paul is a messenger of Allah according to islamic sources.
Let me ask you a question would you call Hitler a bad individual?
How about David Koresh?
hitler ... yes... david koresh?? i dont know him.. i read an atricle of some guy in the US who built a pyramid and stuff... is he the same person??if yes... then he too is a false prophet...
How do you define a false prophet?
Am I believe your islamic doctrine prevents you from ciiting error when you see it?
Or is Mohammed just devoid of any wrong doing no matter what he does?
no it doesnt... if i see some thing wrong i say it... as for Muhammed making mistakes (sin) well... upto a certain point yes he can make mistakes (sins)... but that will be at the starting point of one's search for the truth... and slowly all these "mistakes" will be cleared out as false accusations...
In other words Mohammed is without sin?
Show me one miracle or prophecy from Mohammed. The koran being his sole miracle is getting a bit tiresome seeing he didn't oversee one word of it.
Tell me... did Moses raise anyone form the dead???
Did Jesus bring any plagues???or did he kill the first born of every egyptian??? or roman for that matter??? point it... different ages had different requirements... What was Abrahams miracle??? who decided on making him a Prophet? i mean if supernatural events are the judging cretria for prophethood the what did Abraham do? or Noah? or David? etc???
First your analogy is completely off center. Abraham is the Father of many nations not a prophet, Noah is not a prophet, where are the prophecies of all these people islam automatically label prophets?
How do you define a prophet?
I fail to see your point by islamic rules thiefs are to have their limbs chopped off, apostates are to be killed, jihad is to be utilised against non believers, but of course a westernised mild approach to islam gives more tolerance than the koran or islam suggests.
The poit is christianity says be tolerance... got slapped on one cheek give the other for slapping as well... this is what i meant by which rules you follow... if the above is true... then there shouldnt be any animosity from a christian. peace and harmony will be prevalent... but from your posts it clearly shows that tolerance is not one of your attributes...
Then you misunderstand christianity, by your notion of a christian if someone rapes somebody else I should keep quiet and never say a word do nothing not even tell the rapist he has done something bad.
Salvation does not give you the freedom to sin, if you ever met a true christian you would see that there is no desire to sin, it would be like going to your vomit.
True... in an ideal utopia type world absolutely true.... but how many christians do you know who have not sinned even once after their re-birth? from 33AD till now 2004AD??
Everyody sins, there is only One who has never sinned and that one is God who is the perfect example, who will return to judge the world, the aim is to strive to be like Him, Mohammed regressed from his teachings, he has no miracles or prophecies under his belt, all he has is his word and the sword; in the slogan of Nike " just do it" just about sums up Mohammed and islam.
| View Parent Message View dfilename Return Home |