Apologetics Forum: Ask questions about Christianity/Debate doctrinesCatholicismAineo wrote:As to what you posted from John 20 you posted only a portion of what John wrote: John 20:19-23
19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." NAS
At the time Jesus was crucified the disciples number about 120.
What does the number of disciples have to do with what I said? I realize how many there were. That however, was not my point. So what is your point? My point was the fact that Jesus now sends His new priests to us so that they can forgive our sins in the Sacrament of confession. It is clear as day right there in bold red.
Aineo wrote:Why is the Catholic Church off base? Where should I start? Images, transubstantiation, baptismal regeneration, works increases justification, the Papacy, praying to the physically dead, Mary is the mother of God, the list is long.
Images? Why is that so bad? God told Moses to construct from gold two cheribum angels atop the ark. Remember the snake on the cross that God said to construct? Those are images also. We do not "worship statues" if that's what you're getting at. Do you have pictures of family in your wallet or on your walls? Does the USA have statues of soldiers and have the flag up? They are merely reminders for us that's all.
As far as transubstantiation, that is what happens to the host as it turns to the Body, blood, soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not merely a symbol. You really don't read my posts do you? And if you do, you really don't think about what I write. You just jump on me. What kind of Christian are you? I have stated again and again that I am here with peace. I do not want to argue with anyone here. I saw that this was a forum about Jesus Christ and I love Jesus so I wanted to participate. When I realized that all of you are Protestants I wanted to enlighten you and let you know what Catholics learn and know in the Catholic church. I just want to share. If you don't agree with me, fine; if you do agree with even part of what I say, then that's fine too.
The Eucharist is biblical;
John 6:47-69 (RSV) wrote: 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um.
60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
As far as Jesus speaking of the Spirit, the Spirit makes it possible for the bread to turn into His body. He was not about to literally cut off a peice of his 'flesh' to give to them but it is the Holy Spirit that makes it possible for it to become His Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. It is also the Holy Spirit that makes it so that you can believe in the "real presence." Have you ever seen the miracles of the Eucharist? Well even if you did see them, you would come up with something that would contradict what really happened in those miracles.
Aineo wrote:If anyone needs to be shown the light it is those who live in the darkness of religion and not in the light of the Lord who set us free from religion.
Jesus did not abolish religion. He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. I'm sure you know that verse in the bible.
Mat 5:17-20 (RSV) wrote: 17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Here is that same set of verses from a different version plus the rest of the chapter. This goes to show that works do add to our salvation. Do you know that verse that says, "...work out your salvation with fear and trembling?" Well that's just another one that proves that my works are justified. Jesus also said to love one another as He has loved us, and to love God with all our hearts and with all our might and all our strength. We do have to work out our salvation. Faith ALONE will not get you to heaven. Just read this next quote from Matthew. We are all called to be Saints. I am called to be Holy. That is what it means to be a Christian. If being here will cause me to get angry with any of you then I do not want to be here. So please bare with me. I do not want to argue or get angry with any of you. I am not perfect, but I do want to love all of you as God has called me to do. Since I am not perfect, please bare with me and make it easier for me to do so. Although that is not what God said. He said to love my enemies too. Not that you're my enemies. I don't even know any of you other than your posts. So I want to keep peace with all of you. If anyone wants to know further of what the Catholic church teaches straight from the horses mouth so to speak then you can ask me anything.
Mat 5:17-48 (NAB) wrote: 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law
or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass
away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter
will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these
commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least
in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these
commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
20 I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that
of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the
kingdom of heaven.
21 "You have heard that it was said to your
ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be
liable to judgment.'
22 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother
will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother,
'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says,
'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
23 Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and
there recall that your brother has anything against you,
24 leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be
reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way
to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over
to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until
you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not
commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with
lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out
and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your
members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off
and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your
members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.
31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife
must give her a bill of divorce.'
32 But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless
the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and
whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
33 "Again you have heard that it was said to your
ancestors, 'Do not take a false oath, but make good to the Lord
all that you vow.'
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by
heaven, for it is God's throne;
35 nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; nor by
Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 Do not swear by your head, for you cannot make a
single hair white or black.
37 Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes,' and your 'No' mean 'No.'
Anything more is from the evil one.
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an
eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is
evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the
other one to him as well.
40 If anyone wants to go to law with you over your
tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
41 Should anyone press you into service for one mile,
go with him for two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn
your back on one who wants to borrow.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love
your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for
those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father,
for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes
rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense
will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual
about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is
perfect.
They are called the Ten Commandments for a reason. They are not called the "ten suggestions." We are to keep them so that we can remain in God's good graces and go to Heaven as He wants us to.
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