ArchivedCatholic heresyRomeSweetHome wrote:Very good post Aineo, but theres just a few problems.
Luke 1:46-55
46 And Mary said:
"My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Indeed I agree that Mary needed a savior, and the savior, Jesus SAVED her from original sin. Thats why Jesus IS the savior of Mary.
Those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ are saved from their original sin. In other words this applies to all the saints, not just Mary. From the Old Testament we learn that when God sets aside something as sacred and imprints it with His own hand (such as the Ark of the Covenant) that it must be made of the purest materials, unblemished, untouched, and never used for non-sacred purposes either before, during, or after its purpose for being. What is once touched by God in this way must remain pure forever.
We learn these notions from such passages in the Old Testament as the story of the soldiers who saw the Ark of the Covenant begin to fall into the mud and he reached out and grabbed the Ark to prevent it from falling. Despite the fact that he was well-intentioned, he was struck dead on the spot. Why? Because he touched the Holy Ark without having consecrated hands to do so.
Since the Ark was to be transported by poles and not touched by human hands this statement does not make sense. What made the Ark holy and sacred was the mercy seat and it contents – the tablets of the Law, Aaron’s rod, and a pot of manna. Again in the Old Testament we see this notion of pure sacredness. In the Holy of Holies where dwelt the Ark of the Covenant no one could enter except the High Priest once a year. A rope was tied to the ankles of the High Priest before he entered the Holy of Holies. This rope would be used to drag out his body in case he died while in the Holy of Holies. That is how important that the Holiest of holy things that God has set his finger upon MUST be kept untouched and undefiled.
The Old Testament also emphasizes purity of clothing, foods, etc. As to the Holy of Holies only the high priest could enter and then only once a year to sprinkle the sacrificial blood on the Day of Atonement. At the moment of Christ’s death the curtain to the Holy of Holies was split from top to bottom removing this requirement for all time. Christ’s once for all sacrifice fulfilled the purpose of the Holy of Holies thereby signifying we no longer need an intermediary. Again in the Old Testament we see this theology of the Sacred in the manner of the Old Testament Sacrifice of the lamb. The lamb had to be a lamb, and not a sheep (in other words, pre-sexual so that the lamb was of course virginal), the lamb had to be free of all blemish and pure. Only then could it be used for sacrifice to God.
Here you are referring to the Pascal lamb sacrificed at Passover. Doves, bulls, lambs, goats, etc. were also sacrificed for other occasions. So again, this does not apply to Mary since she was not sacrificed for our sins. Now with this said, we can begin to understand the Marian doctrines. Mary was the Ark of the NEW Covenant. Like the Ark of the Mosaic Covenant she was to hold the very presence of God in her womb. Thus that womb MUST be pure, unblemished, untouched.
Thus Mary HAD to be immaculately conceived to be free from the blemish of original sin. She HAD to live a sinless life (by virtue of being free from the stain of original sin) in order to remain unblemished and pure to be the Ark of God. She had to be virgin and give virgin birth for the same reason. As the Ark of God she had to be unblemished, pure, and untouched.
But after the birth of Jesus she HAD to remain a virgin because of the nature of the holiness and sacredness that God made her womb. Can you imagine let's say, the Chalice of the Blood of our Lord, once it has worn out and cannot be used for the Holy Mass anymore, being used to remove water from the toilet? Such an idea is loathsome. Even though the Chalice is no longer used in Sacred Ministry, it MUST STILL be treated as a Sacred object and if disposed of, disposed of properly.
And here your theology moves to mythology. You agree at the beginning that Mary needed a Savior, now you are saying she did not since in order to be pure enough to be the ark of the new covenant she had to be without sin. We are told in the Bible that Jesus suffered temptations in the same manner as we, yet He did not sin. God cannot be tempted, so Christ had to have original sin, which He got from Mary or He could not have been tempted. Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. NAS
If Jesus did not inherit man’s propensity to sin from Mary due to her original sin this statement from Hebrews is a lie.
Your comparing a chalice used in mass and childbirth as loathsome is a bit ludicrous, or do you see all childbirth as loathsome? We can compare the chalice used in mass to the wine it contains. What makes the chalice holy for mass: the wine, not the container, since it is the wine that symbolizes the blood of Christ, not the chalice. Matt 23:16-22
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.' 17 "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.' 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. NAS Although Mary's main mission to give birth to the Savior was over, the sacred vessel of her womb, made holy by the very touch of God, had to remain pure, undefiled, and unblemished. She HAD to be perpetually virgin. If she was not then God was lying about the nature of the sacred in the Old Testament.
Just where do you get this? The temple furnishings were holy, the altar, the consecrated bread, the lamp stands, and the tables, etc. were holy. The Old Testament is just that the Old, which is replaced with the New. In the New Testament we are told there is neither male nor female, gentile or Jew for all are the same. Now you are telling me this is not true. Finally, Mary HAD to be assumed into heaven. We do not know for sure if Mary died and then was assumed or if she was assumed without dying. Either way, the sacred vessel of her womb could not be allowed to decay. She HAD to be assumed body and soul into heaven, or otherwise, again, God would have lied in the Old Testament about the nature of the Sacred.
Now you are applying mythology to theology. The rest of what you have posted is pure fantasy and cannot be backed up with anything more than fantasy. Now my friend lets talk about this verse:Matt 1:25
"and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus"
The webmaster posted the best response to this, “she gave birth to her firstborn son”. This word "until" in Greek is "heos", translates for "until or before", and does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated.
Please read these brief quotations:
- "As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death" (2Sam.6:23 YLT)... does it mean that Michael had children after the day of her death?
- "I am till you grow old" (Is.46:4)... Does it mean that when they grow old God ceases to be?..`
- "The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1)... Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued?"
This verse 25, the last one of Matthew 1, is Matthews's summary, or corollary, or bottom line, of all the previous verses 18-24, on how the conception of Jesus happened, without any intervention of Joseph... to interpret it other way, and specially as that Joseph had sexual relations with Virgin Mary after the birth of Jesus, is to change the whole meaning of the chapter, it is nothing but a false interpretation of Satan. :evil:
Actually you are the one perpetrating a false interpretation based on the Greek and Matthew’s choice of “firstborn” not “only”. Aineo
All Christians have direct access to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ His Son without any need for an advocate or an intermediary
Again I agree my friend but....
James 6:15- "... the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." Thus, they pray to the mother of Jesus and to saints because they are among the most righteous people we know about.
The Bible tells us to pray for each other(Intercede), as Catholics, Anglicans and Orthadox Christians, we believe that goes for the dead too.
As the dead are more alive then we are in the ONE BODY of Christ.
Lets look at James, in context:
James 5:13-18
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain; and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the sky poured rain, and the earth produced its fruit. NAS
What does this have to do with dead people praying for the living?
Mat 22:32 "He is NOT the God of the dead but of the LIVING"
Also:
Tobit 12:12- "So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you bury the dead."
Im sure if we can PRAY FOR THE DEAD the dead CAN PRAY FOR US.
This section of Tobit is referring to an angel named Raphael, not a dead person.
Also look at:
2 Timothy 1:16-18
16 The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chains; 17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me, and found me-- 18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day-- and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus. NAS
You are assuming Onesiphorus is dead when in fact Paul is simply stating that Onesiphorus aided him while in prison in Rome. If you look at the prior verse Paul mentions two men who abandoned him. Assumptions, assumptions, ab nauseum.
Last but not least "dead" Saints Intercede for us.
Revelation 6:9-10
9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" NAS
Revelation 5:8
8 And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. NAS
Revelation 11:3
3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." NAS
In Revelation 6 martyrs (who are referred to as souls not saints) are asking when they will be avenged, not praying for the living; in Revelation 5 “prayers of the saints” does not mean prayers of the dead, but those alive on earth; Revelation 11 can refer to Enoch and Elisha who were translated to heaven and never died – the only people the Bible records as having gone to heaven without dieing.
In the Bible “saints” in most cases refers to the living not the dead. The only place I can find where “saints” can be construed to mean those in heaven is where Paul states the “saints will judge the world”.
Also Apparations of the blessed Virgin Mary do happen and no not all are demonic. Just like other apparations of saints etc...
Luke 9:29-30 "And as he Prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him, Which were Moses and Elias"
One account of Moses and Elias appearing with God is your whole argument? Moses represented the Law and Elias the prophets, to demonstrate to the watching disciples that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. To base a belief on apparitions in our time on this one event is really reaching.
What you have demonstrated is the RCC has allowed Roman and Greek mythology to taint Christian truth. The Bible does not record the death of Mary so you assume the assumption. The Bible does not record the death of Thomas, or many of the apostles do you assume they were also taken to heaven?
No wonder Luther wanted to reform the Roman Catholic Church.
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