Hello Evangelion!
Lets take the most easily understood Scripture in the Bible and see for ourselves how the Devil has blinded those who are arrogant in their own beliefs, not submitting to the Truth of Sound Doctrine and the Simplicity of Christ.
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Unlike you, I will not rely on other mens commentaries and copy and paste posts, I will use in my own words to refute your false doctrine.
For starters any Bible scholar will tell you that in the passage of John 1:1 that the word "logos" is the subject and the word "theos" is the predicate. This sets that translation of John 1:1 as, (The Word was God" not "God was the Word". Furthermore a definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it doesn’t have the article when it is preceding the verb.
Evangelions Webpaste wrote:God’s Word in the Old and New Testaments – Dabar and Logos
Dabar – from the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
Speech, word, speaking, thing.
- Speech.
- Saying, utterance.
- Word, words.
- Business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension.)
- Logos – from the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek Lexicon:
Logos; logos, ho: (A) the word or that by which the inward thought is expressed (Latin: oratio), and, (B) the inward thought itself (Latin: ratio.)
- Latin: vox, oratio, that which is said or spoken.
- Latin: ratio, thought, reason.
- Ho LOGOS, the Logos or Word, comprising both senses of Thought and Word. (New Testament.)
The logos is God's reason, purpose, and plan. It is what is what we call the "Word of God", whether spoken, written or conceived in His mind. The Old Testament uses the Hebrew word dabar in the same way that the New Testament uses the Greek word logos.
Now lets see how ridiculous your interpretation is shall we?
In the beginning God had a pre-ordained plan in his mind {logos}. And this pre-ordained plan was with God, and this plan was as inseparable from God as is a thought from the person pondering about it, as a result the plan was God.. "And Jesus Christ came into personal existence for the first time He was conceived, being a creature based upon God's pre-ordained plan which was with Him in the beginning. Now God's plan was materialized in all its fullness." This is what all Christadelphians believe according to their doctrine and your webpaste.
Now since you had already decided that you couldn't establish a connection between man an woman an Son and Father as a class of being, I will show you just how ridiculous your doctrine is.According to you this is how it reads paraphrased. In the beginning, God had a plan to eventually create HULDAH, and HULDAH, as God imagined, was with MAN, and HULDAH, as God imagined, was MAN. Finally, the thought/plan became flesh when HULDAH was actually created. MAKE SENSE???
According to your Christadelphian belief, the phrase, "the Word was with God" doesn't mean the Son and the Father are distinct persons. But rather "Word" (Gr.
logos) simply means "something said" and is referring to God's speaking in creation. Now lets see where your error is. And since you believe that Jesus did not have any pre-existence before His Birth we arrive a t a problem. The word "with" {Gr.
pros} means "to or towards" when used in this grammatical case expressing the direct object, as it is seen here. The word is generally translated "to,toward or unto, here are some examples in scripture which uses the same meaning::
- John 3:2 - The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come{erchomai} from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
- John 3:20 - For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh{erchomai} to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
- John 3:26 - And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come{erchomai} to him.
- John 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming{erchomai} unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
So as you can see that your Logos theology is seriously flawed!
Evangelion wrote:And how do you arrive at that conclusion? On what basis do you claim that this is what the verse is saying? Talk about twisting Scripture!
There is nothing in that verse which says that their sins have already been forgiven. Indeed, any such statement would be completely meaningless!
It's like saying "And if you bake the cake, the cake has already been baked." Which makes no sense at all.
I also notice that you had to add a word to the verse - a word which isn't in the text. This is a clear sign that you can't accept the words of Scripture in their original form. In short, you have presented nothing which supports your interpretation.
The verse says that if the disciples forgive the sins of people, then those sins will be forgiven. It's right there in black and white.
Really?
Apparently you don't understand Greek to well because the literal meaning in Greek reads as: "their sins have (already) been forgiven them". Do some research on this OK! The apostles could not forgive sin, when they say that someon is forgiven of their sins, By the inspiration of the Holy Spirt, their sins were already forgiven before this. It is not saying that God forgives their sins at, the moment the apostles proclaim it, it is stating that when the Holy Spirit leads them to proclaim the forgiveness of sins, God previously have already forgiven them. Firstly in God's mind which is True and Divine Absolution, the Apostls then proclaim it.
When you read the Book of Acts you should conclude that proclaiming the forgiveness of sins was extremely noticeable in the apostolic teachings. Jesus had given the apostles and the Church the right granted to announce how one can receive the forgiveness of sins in Heavens terms. If a person believes in Jesus, then a Christian has the priveledge to announce their forgiveness of sin. And if that person rejects Jesus’s Sacrifice then the Christian can announce that that person is not forgiven. Do you understand now?
According to Truth, God alone is to be Worshipped. And I will demonstrate How JESUS CHRIST"The Son of God" Is worshipped in the Highest Sense.
As in your previous flawed theological doctrines, I can guarantee that you will make every bit of effort to seek an explantion which will be once again proven erroneous and flawed. And I will again refute it. I can continue this debate forever if you'd like, if you remain in your arrogance than your mind will continue to be clouded to the Truth because the Enemy feeds on Pride and lions are know for Pride! Right EvangeLION!
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Doesn't seem too humble does it?
And there shall be no more curse: but the (throne of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall (serve him): And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Jesus Is Clearly Worshipped here!!!
{
Latreuo}:To render religious service or homage,
to worship or to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to
worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for
his worship.
- Furthermore that passage says "HIM" and it refers to both the Father and the Son in UNITY! You would have to be blind not to recognize the pattern that refers to the Father and the Son as though they were ONE, (GOD) that is!
- Both the Father and the Son are themselves ONE TEMPLE and not 2, furthermore there isn't 2 lights that are shining but ONE!
Revelation 21:23 - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of (God did lighten it), and (the Lamb is the light) thereof.
- Next we have both the Father and the Son who are seen sitting upon one throne and not two.
Revelation 22:3 - And there shall be no more curse: but the (throne of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
It clearly says throne and not thrones."
- Christians are also called "bond-servants" which is the common word for a slave{doulos}, and they serve the Father and the Son and are referred not to as them but rather than Him.
Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his (servants) things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Believers are also referred to as bondslaves of the Father. Revelation 7:15 - Therefore are they before the throne of God, and (serve him) day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 22:4 - And they shall see (his face); and his name shall be in their foreheads.
The word face here is singular, and they see one face rather than faces.
Can you actullay say In ALL HONESTY, that Christ is not God even after it isrendered crystal clear?
I pray for you my friend that the eye of your heart be opened and that you may fully comprehend the Nature of the Godhead, Do you suppose that the reason you came to this forum is to open our eyes or to open yours? And if you Truly Love God, could it be possible that He is trying to reveal a FACT which is cleary understood in scripture so that A CHILD MAY UNDERSTAND?
2 Corinthians 1:12, 11:3 - For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
God Bless!
God Bless!
God Bless!