Christian/Muslim ThreadsNo Proof Quran Copied from Bible, Gnostic or Jewish SourcesThe Protoevangelium Jacobi, or Infancy Gospel of James: "The earliest known manuscript of the text was found in 1958; it is now kept in Geneva's Bodmer Library. The manuscript dates to the third century" -- http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html "The "Protoevangelium" exists in ancient Greek and Syriac recensions. There are also Armenian and Latin translations." -- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01601a.htm Infancy Gospel of Thomas: "the earliest manuscript is a sixth century one in Syriac." -- http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/i ... homas.html The First Gospel of The Infancy of Jesus Christ: "Another gospel called the first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, was used by the Gnostics in the second century. This was also commonly used in the Eastern countries" -- http://www.holyorderofmans.org/Jesus-of ... itings.htm Arabic Infancy Gospel: "The Arabic is a translation of a lost Syriac original. The work is a compilation and refers expressly to the "Book of Joseph Caiphas, the High-Priest", the "Gospel of the Infancy", and the "Perfect Gospel". Some of its stories are derived from the Thomas Gospel, and others from a recension of the apocryphal Matthew. However there are miracles, said to have occurred in Egypt, not found related in any other Gospel, spurious or genuine, among them the healings of leprosy through the water in which Jesus had been washed, and the cures effected through the garments He had worn. These have become familiar in pious legend. So also has the episode of the robbers Titus and Dumachus, into whose hands the Holy Family fell. Titus bribes Dumachus not to molest them; the Infant foretells that thirty years thence the thieves will be crucified with Him, Titus on His right and Dumachus on His left and that the former will accompany Him into paradise. The apocryphon abounds in allusions to characters in the real Gospels. Lipsius opines that the work as we have it is a Catholic retouching of a Gnostic compilation. It is impossible to ascertain its date, but it was probably composed before the Mohammedan era. It is very popular with the Syrian Nestorians" -- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01601a.htm Well the only reason why he probably didn't is because the quran lacks original quran's... We have older apocrypha in arabic, etc... but with what do you compare it, if the oldest quran you have dates 2 centuries after that. Any man who studies ancient scriptures would see that the quran is unreliable to discuss in scriptual terms, since we have to imagine that a quran excisted completly the same as the one we have now. Instead of having one... cause for all we know the quran was only created 200 years later or an entire different one excisted 200 years before. All those apocrypha's been long carbon dated, a little research would grant you the evidence you seek (if you really are seeking). Plus do know that the borrowing doesn't begin and end with this gospel only... If we can proof over more then 40 borrowings from other post-quran era dated material, then it's only obvious that these gospels are included in his borrowings... i mean put two and two together Ignaz Goldziher writes in "Muslim Studies", page 346: "The fact that Islam regarded Christianity as a religion from which something could be learnt, and did not disdain to borrow from it, is acknowledged by the Muslim theologians themselves, (1) and the early elements of Hadith literature offer us a great wealth of examples which show how readily the founders of Islam borrowed from Christianity. We do not here allude to those vague borrowings which in the earliest times of Islam, through verbal communications with Christian monks or half-educated converts, helped in building up the form and content of the faith, and which appear in the form of isolated technical expressions, Bible legends, and so forth; but we mean those borrowings which are presented in a more definite shape, and evince a certain, if not a very extensive, knowledge of the Christian Scriptures." (1) This note says, "Thus Ibn Hajar, I, p. 372, quotes ancient authorities who acknowledge the share which the communication of the Christian proselyte Tamin al-Dari had in the formation of Muhammad's eschatology. [Cf. Tamin al-Dari in the EI (Ency. of Islam)] D. S. Margoliouth writes in "Muhammad and the Rise of Islam", page 106: [comments in ( ) brackets are mine] "The needs of his (Muhammad's) profession do not appear to have made him actually a student - yet there is no question that as the Koran grew in bulk, its knowledge of biblical stories became somewhat more accurate: and thought this greater degree of accuracy may have at times been due to the Prophet's memory, it is more likely that he took such opportunities as offered of acquiring more information. The following story gives us an idea of his method. Jabr, a client of the Banu ' Abd al Dar, was a Jew who worked as a smith in Meccah. He and Yasr (also a Jew) used to sit together at their trade and in the course of their work read out their sacred book the Prophet used to pass by and listen. Presently Jabr was converted by hearing the Prophet read the Surah of Joseph. It has been suggested that some of the Christian matter in the Koran may have been learned from an early follower named Suhaib, who was a Greek from Mosul. The tradition names more than one person who was thought by the Meccans to be the Prophet's mentor, and the Koran even refutes this charge by stating that the person to whom they allude had a foreign tongue, and could not therefore be the author of an Arabic Koran. Perhaps that reply is unconvincing; but the impression which the Koran leaves is that of information picked up casually rather than acquired by any sort of methodical study. In a Surah delivered at Medinah in which the story of Saul should be told, Saul's name is mutilated to Talut, clearly a jingle with Galut, the nearest that the Prophet could get to Goliath: the name of Samuel is forgotten, he is confused with Gideon, and the story of Gideon is told wrongly. This phenomenon almost disposes of the theory of a mentor, for no mentor could be so ignorant of the Bible. Moreover the sources of the Koran are very numerous - Abyssinian, and Syriac, as was as Hebrew and Greek So far then as the biblical tales of the Koran were not reproductions of matter heard by Muhammad on his early travels, they are likely to have been all picked up by listening when services or Bible readings were going on." Even the Muslim scholar Ali Dashti in "23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad", notes Muhammad's interactions with people who were Christian, Jewish, or other. On pages 21, 22 he writes: "A process of this kind had begun in Mohammad's mind during his childhood and had prompted him to meet and talk with Christian monks and priests on his Syrian journey instead of spending all his time on commercial business. On his way back, through the lands of Medyan and the Ad and Thamud, he had heard the legends of the local people. In Mecca itself he had exchanges visits with followers of the scriptural religions. He had sat for hours in Jabr's shop near the hill of Marwa, and had been in constant touch with Khadija's cousin Waraqa b. Nawfal, who is said to have translated a part of the New Testament into Arabic. All these experiences are likely to have turned the ever-present disquiet in his inner mind into turmoil. There is a reference in the Qoran to Mohammad's long and frequent talks with Jabr. The Qorayshites alleged that Mohammad had learned the words of the Qoran from Jabr, who was a foreigner. The answer is given in verse 105 of sura 16 (on-Nalh): "And We know that they say, "It is only a human who is teaching him." The speech of the person at whom they hint is outlandish whereas this is clear Arabic speech." The biographies of the Prophet mention several other followers of the scriptures and possessors of knowledge with whom he exchanged visits before the start of his mission, e.g. Aesh, the sage of the Howayteb tribe, Salman ol-Farsi, and Belal the Abyssinian. Abu Bakr also had discussions with him at that time and agreed with him." Who's talking about the New Testament? He copied from the apocryphal sources... if he did copy from the new testament maybe the quran wouldn't be full of heresy and innacurracies. Plus there were jews and christians all over arabia, thus there was oral tradition of christianity and judaism. Example of this is Muhammed talking to his possy about "Remember the days of Abraham..." like Aburaees once said, "from where do they know that?", yes from the bible... judaism and christianity was spread in the arabian pensulina and i think the large majority of all respected historians will agree with 150 procent on that. Tisdall wrote an outdated book, you said yourself... the last century was a very fast century... and in contrast to the beginning our education and knowledge since then has quadruppled if Tisdall knew what we knew now, he wouldn't of restrained from commenting on it. And i have allready shown and shown you again that the clay bird story excisted for over more then 400 years and was being spread from the roman empire to the arabian east. There was no need for Mary the copt in order to know this story. And Ibn Warraq was known for translating gospels into Arabic... As did Muhammed known and met alot of monks, christians and jews... And did his critics tell him that he knew tales of the ancient and that he just repeated them... It's all pointing to the obvious... muhammed is a borrower |
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