ArchivedOSAS revisitedHello Aineo! 1 Tim 5:15 is a gross misinterpretation, "Turned aside after Satan": refers to the younger widows who have rejected chaste living, propriety, and a proper second marriage, pursuing-in accord with Satan's wishes-a carnal, self-indulgent, self-willed life. The whole chapter deals with instructions concerning widows, there is nothing here that indicates or equates with the loss of Salvation. Does the true sheep of God continue to follow their shepherd? I will deal with this later within this post. OBJECTION #2. Can you be "born again" again?
According to Dan Corner, a person can lose their salvation and regain it according to His interpretation of Lk 15:24,32. Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches us that it is impossible for one who departs from His faith to be renewed back to repentance, that is to say that it is impossible to regain your salvation, so apparently Hebrew 6:4-6 cannot refer to a loss of Salvation to Dan. Furthermore the Parable of the Prodigal Son does not refer to someone who once had His salvation and then lost but is used to illustrate the salvation of the lost. NOTE: (Jesus' listeners were publicans and sinner [Lk 15:1]) NOT those who were saved. Furthermore lets look at the context of Luke 15:32: The word "dead" (nekros) refers to the state of being spiritually dead in contrast to "alive again" (anazao) which refers to a restored life, and again in the context of that verse we also read that he was also "lost" (apollumi) which can refer to a state of spiritual ruin [Matt 10:39; 15:24, 18:11] which is parallel to being dead. In the same context being alive again is parallel to being "found" (heurisko) which refers to finding God or getting to know Him. You are born once physically and you are born once spiritually. OBJECTION #3. Those that truly get saved will faithfully endure to the end and never follow another. Luke 18:13 does not refer to those who possessed saving faith but rather refers to shallow-hearted individuals who anon (at once) receive (outwardly) the message with joy, who had no root and were fruitless. Fruitless life is a sure sign of an "UNBELIEVER" who doesn’t have Christ within their hearts, Example: - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for (without me) ye can do nothing. (John 15:5) "Without me", meaning without Christ within us we are not able to produce fruits of the spirit. The branches of Matt 3:10 are those which did not produce fruit from the (Good Ground) and thus produced "Bad Fruit" which is then cast into the fire to be burned. The disciples of John 6:66 were not Jesus' true disciples and not true believers, Dan has excluded a verse vital to refuting His point, John 6:64! John 6:64 states "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him." That passage clearly states that Jesus knew "FROM THE BEGINNING" who would betray Him and who the "Unbelievers" would be. Furtheremore Peter says to the LORD in verse 69 "And (we believe and are sure) that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." Now lets take a look at 1 Cor 15:2 and examine the word "vain" which occurs 6 times in the 15th chapter alone. The word vain used here is (eikei), not retaining the Gospel will show that the Corinthians to have "believed in vain", that is "without effect". A temporary faith makes no appreciable difference in one's life because the Gospel fails to take effect. Gal 5:4 is translated "You will be severed from Christ, if you try to be justified by the law; you will forfeit the favor in God's eyes which Christ won for you" This does not teach the loss of Salvation which one earlier possessed. Rather it means that if the readers truly renounce grace through faith alone as the way of salvation, if they depend on legalism to secure divine favor, then they show that they never really knew God’s Grace in the first place. OBJECTION #4. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life," Jn. 5:24. The verse says "will not be condemned." Therefore, one cannot lose it! The present tense of believeth is focused on the moment the believer enters into his/her continuous faith. Furthermore John 5:24 also states that those who continuously believes in Him is passed (Perfect Tense) from death unto life, which literally means that the believer has definitively passed from death to life and at that moment possesses it. OBJECTION #5. "The Bible Answer Man" is Hank Hanegraaff. He's on coast to coast radio, he can't be wrong! He wrote the following, "And remember, eternal life comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time." (27)
In regards to Romans 8:13, Rom. 7:5 states that those who live according to the flesh are unbelievers who are under the law. If we go back just a few verse to Romans 8:9:"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". That verse clearly states that believers are not in the flesh but are led by the Spirit of God as opposed to Rom. 8:13 which states that those who live according to the flesh are unbelievers, thus we conclude that believers are not the ones being in the flesh but rather the unbelievers. Gal. 5:19-23 clearly makes the distinction between the "works of the flesh" with the "fruit of the spirit", the children of God or believers are not in the flesh as stated in Rom. 8:19, but in the Spirit. OBJECTION #6. We are made sons of God, not put on probation! "Hold fast until the end" There is a parallel to that verse found in Hebrews 3:6 which reads: Hebrews 3:6 - But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Mark 4: 16-17 states that those who do not hold fast until the end are superficial believers, and 2 Peter 2:22, the very reason for the believers ability to endure to the end is his unperishable faith which they possess (1 Peter 1:7), unlike gold which perishes. I have demonstrated this in Dans response to Objection #3. OBJECTION #7. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life," Jn. 3:16. Jesus said "shall not perish"! I have explained the believers ability to believe continuously in Dans Objection of 6 and 3. OBJECTION #8. I agree with Dave Hunt who wrote, "Salvation is the full pardon by grace from the penalty of all sin, past, present or future...."(28) I believe that Dan is misunderstanding Dave Hunts interpretation of full pardon by Grace from the penalty of all sin, past, present and future. The scriptures teaches us that If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Conviction is a sign that the Holy Spirit is present within us, this conviction brings us to repentance and a plea for forgiveness each time we sin, whether past, present or future. The Blood of Christ is the initial remedy for our sins and continues to cleanse us from sin and its presence of power through prayers as we ask to be forgiven, past present and future. OBJECTION #9. "...love for the one who saved us is the greatest and only acceptable motive for living a holy life...."(29) I would have to agree with Dan Corner on this objection, although this objection does not refute the Doctrine of Eternal Security. OBJECTION #10. God wouldn't save a person then later send him to Hell. When was Saul or Judas ever saved? As I have stated in Dan Corners refutation to Objection #3 that Judas was among the unbelievers who Jesus knew beforehand would betray Him an even referred to them explicitly as "UNBELIEVERS" (believed not). Furthermore making a comparison between King Saul and a believer of today is a largely askew in the sense that the Holy Spirit did not reside permanently within Saul and the Old Testament Saints as they do today (Eph, 4:30), examples:
I have already commented on (Lk. 8:13) on Dans refutation to Objection #3 and (Gal 5:21) never once states that those who are being led by the flesh are those who have previously obtained salvation, but on the contrary it teaches us that those who are led by the flesh are unbelievers who are under the law (Rom. 7:5) and are not those who are led by the Spirit (Rom 8:19) who are the sons of God. Romans 8:1 states: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Those who are spiritually minded are controlled by the Holy Spirit (WHICH ARE IN CHRIST) whereas those who are carnally minded have their life dominated by the sin nature. Verse 9 of Romans 8 states that any who lack the spirit are unsaved and verse 10 states that if this spirit resides within us then we are dead to the sinful nature, now back to verse 9 which states that if the spirit of God does not reside within the person than he is unregenerated, thus he is "none of this" and therefore is not led by the Spirit but by the flesh making him/her an unbeliever. (Matt 10:33) being disowned by Jesus according to Dan Corner, here is the verse in its entirety: "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." The warning whosoever shall deny me is a comprehensive historical aorist tense, referring not to one moment of denial such as in the case of Peter's, but to an entire lifelong resistance to Christ. It is the refusal to confess Christ at all which eliminates one from being a true follower of Jesus Christ. In (Rev 3:5, can a genuine believe have their name blotted out of the Book of Life? According to 1 John 5:4 it reads "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." "Overcometh the world" is in the present tense which is indicating that the believer is continually overcoming, in other words the believer will continuously overcomes (1 John 5:5). Now on to (Rev 22:19), according to Dan, the believer can lose their part in the share of the tree of life and be banned from the Holy City. Anyone who willfully distorts the message of the Book of Revelation shows himself not to be a genuine believer (obviously) and thus will not participate in eternal life or the blessings of the New Jerusalem.
And in regards to (Rom. 8:13), I have already answered that in Dans refutation to Objection #5. OBJECTION #12. Those that are saved have an inheritance that can "never perish, spoil or fade -- kept in heaven" for us (1 Pet. 1:3,4). This has already been answered on Dans refutation to Objection #5. OBJECTION #13. Jesus prayed to the Father that He would protect His disciples and that none would be lost. Certainly, the Father heard Jesus' prayer! The Unity found in (Jn. 17:22) NOT 24, refers to the Eternal State of the Jesus' followers, and is it possible that Jesus' request to His Father somehow went unanswered according to 1 Cor. 1:10-13? Gods timing usually and does not have to conform to that of mans. Furthermore Jesus Himself says that His Father hears Him "ALWAYS" (John 11:42) since He does the will of His Father. Furthermore it is noted that this is clearly a "Prayer" on behalf of Jesus Himself, and not a will or desire. "Endureth to the end shall be saved" is a promise of perseverance, not a teaching that Salvation may be lost. Rather, it indicates that those who are truly saved will indeed endure to the end as I have pointed out in Dans refutations to Objection #3 and 6. Our free will can indeed cannot override the prayers of Jesus, but His will in our lives! Jesus' prayers were always aligned with Gods ultimate and divine purpose before the foundation of the world due to Gods foreknowledge, however His will is not always in accordance with mans free-will. In addition to that, the scriptures read that "But as many as received, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13), this passage does not teach that being born of God is not a process but rather a state reached upon initial salvation. The words "As received" is in the indicative aorist tense, not receiving Him in a process but rather we have already received Christ. "To them gave He the power" is also in the indicative aorist tense, in other words it is stating that God gave us the power to become sons of God, and not a process. "To become the sons-aorist tense"(even to them that believe) of God is in the present tense indicating believers possess a continuous faith and belief in Him and not a continual process. OBJECTION #14. "...if salvation from the penalty of breaking God's laws cannot be earned by good deeds, then it CANNOT BE LOST BY BAD DEEDS" (30) (emphasis his, but capitalized words are italicized in original). (1 Cor. 6:9-10) states the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God: There were evidently some in the Corinthian assembly who had professed Christianity as a system of doctrine, but not as a rule of life. Paul warns that this is a fatal mistake. Nobody who can allow himself the indulgence of known sin in his life can be saved. This passage proves that both James and Paul are basically in agreement, they affirm that genuine faith produces good works (Eph. 2:8-10), and that the absence of Good works is an indication of the absence of saving faith (James 2:14-26). Gal. 5:19-21 has already been discussed in Dans response to Objection # 11. What Dan Corner is missing in the passages which seemingly refer to Christians living a sinful life and losing their Salvation is the "Core" of the believer, i.e. they possesses Saving Faith or faith which is also unperishable. OBJECTION #15. A child cannot become unborn, and the relationship of a father and a child cannot be ended. Once a son, always a son. I'm not sure who was the actual person making these objections, because they are apparently not well thought out and examined in the light of scripture. There is indeed a significant contrast between the natural and the spiritual. However what Dan fails to realize is that "he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit - (1 Cor 6:17)" The words "he that is joined"(kollao) is in the present tense indicating that this person is joined (fastened together firmly), he is already joined to the LORD in spirit. One spirit is suggesting the highest possible Unity between the LORD and the believer, i.e., the sheep can not wander off, the branch cannot be severed from the vine and the son cannot be alienated from the Father, basically, nothing can separate them!!! Furthermore there are sizeable differences between the restraining power of the devil and that of God, example: In addition, human beings in their natural state and sinful natures do not have Satan abiding within them, but rather live according to the carnal and worldly desires of the devil making them children or sons of the evil one, that is they have the (same nature). With believers, God is united with us and makes his abode within our hearts and cannot be separated as I have stated above, the believer who is united or One with the LORD in spirit is guided by the spirit and does not live his life according to the flesh, since the spirit of God which is joined with Him also does not. OBJECTION #16. "...I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day," (2 Tim. 1:12). The only way Paul could have made this statement for himself was if he believed in unconditional eternal security. I already stated previously how the believer possesses unperishable faith and that this is continuous on the believers life on the fact that God has given him this power, thus (2 Tim. 1:12) proves true in the sense that God is able to preserve us until that day. Paul was persuaded (peitho), the perfect tense indicates that he (Paul) was persuaded in the past and remains so now, that God is able to keep or the assurance of Salvation which is committed to him against that day. OBJECTION #17. A real Christian won't ever be condemned as Romans 8:1 reads, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...."
Case in point in regards to the believer who is founded upon unwavering faith as I have previously stated in my past responses, those who are "In Christ" remain in the Son! Dan has misconstrued (Jn. 15:6) in to meaning that a believer can be severed from Christ and thus lose his salvation, I have explained how his interpretation does not hold up in his response to Objections #3 and 15. The very core of the believer is unwavering, unperishable faith, he is united with the LORD in spirit, he abides as a branch which brings forth fruit, he is led by the spirit of God and not in the flesh and his faith is continual, thus 1 Jn 2:24 and 2 Jn. 9 proves that those who do not abide in Christ are not in Christ but are unfruitful, unbelieving, self-professed Christians who do not possess saving faith, all this have been reinstated and detailed many times over in my past responses. OBJECTION #18. Phil. 1:6 declares, "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." This proves unconditional eternal security. Actually Dans interpretation of verse 7 of Phi. 1:7 is incorrect, the expression "I HAVE YOU IN MY HEART" is an idiom which means "I LOVE YOU", NOT meaning they would be aide in their personal struggles by his prayers in verses 9-11. Paul is convinced that the work of grace that God began in the Philippians at conversion will be divinely continued until the day of Jesus Christ. That is, the LORD will keep working in these believers until Jesus returns to earth, at which point He will finish His work, bringing it to completion, this is speaking of the Christians eternal security. God had a purpose in view when He began His saving work in the Philippians, and that purpose will neither be abandoned nor unrealized. OBJECTION #19. Samson was sexually immoral and he's mentioned as a hero in Hebrews 11. Therefore, one can be sexually immoral, like him, and be saved. I would have to agree with Dan here that the sexually immoral will NOT inherit the Kingdom. Samson fell short of Gods standard with his sin and disobedience and did not have the Holy Spirit to guide him at all times as with believers of today (See Objection #10), nevertheless he proved that he possessed faith in God and demonstrated it by his works and commitment to God, e.g., killing thousands of enemy Philistines. OBJECTION #20. Fritz Ridenour has done an excellent job showing the differences between Roman Catholicism and true Christianity in his book, in which he also cites 1 Pet. 1:5 for support of UES.(32) I believe both points.
Dan is repeating himself here, secondly in Romans 11:22, the broken branches do not refer to believers who lost their faith or salvation, a broken branch refers to an unbeliever that never was saved nor was a believer. The broken branches refer to the Jews or the unbelief of Israel, NOT Christians who once possessed faith and then lost it, the Gentiles found favor with God here because of their belief. OBJECTION #21. 1 Jn. 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." This seems clear to me that someone truly saved can't go back to a life of sin.
I have already explained this on multiple occasions on this post, 1 Tim. 5:11-15, Gal. 5:19-21, etc... OBJECTION #22. I believe in UES because I believe in the finished work of Christ! In Dans previous response he states that it is possible for someone to be lost and then saved again as he demonstrated it in the parable of the prodigal son (See Objection #2), furthermore it does not teach that one can lose their salvation through disbelief or apostasy, the author is referring to a hypothetical situation stressing what would happen to a saved person IF he could fall away. The author does not believe in the loss of Salvation, he is demonstrating the foolishness of reverting to Judaism without suffering loss, he is not writing about his readers "those" (v. 4), rather for their sakes "you" (v. 9) IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage. This is a common and even grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages (Heb. 2:3; 10:26; 6:8). The first four participles refer to the actual blessings in contrast to number 5 which describes a potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four. Hebrew 3:12 clearly states:"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." The word "UNBELIEF" says it all, how can one possess unbelief and be a Christian??? Heb 10:26 states "IF we sin willfully" showing that this act is deliberate, in other words this person is not led by the Spirit but are "in the flesh", secondly as in Heb. 6:4-6, it is an hypothetical situation. 2 Tim. 2:12 describes an unbeliever because he "denies" Christ and this denial is a lifelong resistance to Christ as explained in Dans response to Obejction #11, as for the rest of his argument, they have been answered in my previous responses in this post. OBJECTION #23. I know I am eternally secure because God has promised that He will never leave me and never forsake me.
I will reiterate what I said in my previous responses, a Genuine Believer does not forsake his belief, but rather he continues in his faith empowered by God, led by the spirit and not the flesh and endures to the end. OBJECTION #24. Samson committed suicide and he went to heaven because he is listed in the faith chapter. Therefore, we know Christians can likewise commit this awful sin and still go to heaven.
Actually I agree with Dan in his response, Samson did not commit suicide, Samson gave his life as a sacrifice and God gave him the extraordinary strength to accomplish his final feat in the destruction of the Philistines. OBJECTION #25. If I'm wrong as a UES advocate, I want to be wrong because I overemphasize the infinite work of Christ on the cross. I can say exactly the same in regards to Conditional Security. According to Dan Corner, Salvation is a process of enduring until the end. But according to the scriptures it clearly teaches us that our Salvation is secured upon our initial Salvation: Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Hath translated (methistemi) is in active indicative in the aorist tense, meaning that it is a truth that we have are “already” been guaranteed entrance into the Kingdom, and not a future state, thus it is a fact of the past and not of the future! I'm already saved!!! God Bless! |
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