2 Timothy 2:14-26
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness." 20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. NAS
Do you like my entrance rebuttal?
Aineo wrote:You are still arguing against yourself. You maintain THE FAITH is doctrines essential to Christianity and in the previous sentnece ask me to show where "it" actually states that a person renounce their faith. Now I guess you need to decide who determines "doctrines essential to Christianity" since what you consider "essential doctrines" and what Catholicism considers "essential doctrines" are not the same. Go back and read what you have posted. You claim that a "genuine believer" is lead by the Spirit and since the Spirit deals with individuals in their faithful walk with the Lord and not "essential doctrines", most of which change with the denomination your whole thesis is full of holes.
What is ludicrous about OSAS debates is your last ditch stance is "show me they were ever saved in the first place" wich is simply a convenient way to avoid the issue. You claim I am appealing to modern dictionaries to define words, yet you are appealing to modern theologians in your attempt to show "the faith" to mean doctrines essential to Christianity, a concept not found in the NT to personal faith, which in fact has the same meaning to those who don't wrangle over words. Also if you place your "religious" definition of apostate and a secular definition of apostate side by side they are identical.
Aineo, what do I consider "essential doctrines"? When and where did I ever determine what is considered and essential doctrine. As a matter of fact I will quote your appeal to a modern theologian:
[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai (NT:868) ... tees (NT:3588) pisteoos (NT:4102). They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.
The Spirit deals with individuals in their faithful walk with the Lord
and not "essential doctrines"? Then please explain how a person can possibly be led by the spirit without Doctrine? (Rom. 6:17; John 7:16), you cannot be led by the spirit unless you receive the spirit, and how do we receive the Spirit? The Doctrine of Christ (John 17:6) would be a start! Ask your commentator above what "the faith" (essential doctrines) indicate. According to the commentator, the person who renounces doctrines essential to Christianity as a system of salvation is an apostate, now where does it actually state they that the apostate was in fact saved? Your an artful dodger aren't you? This is not a last ditch stance to avoid the issue, since your entire thesis deals with the question "How can someone fall away from something they never had?"
Aineo wrote:Your arguement that "the faith" is not the same as "faith" is reminiscent of Jehovah's Witnesses contention that God (theos) is not the same as the God (ho theos) in John 1:1. The KJ uses the word "faith" 245 times and in only 45 places is faith preceded by "the". When Jesus healed He did not tell those He healed it was done because of "the faith" but because of "their faith.
Now if you read my opening post I asked one question you for the umpteenth time have avoided and that is how can someone fall away from something they never had.
In spite of all the hubris you have thrown around for the last 6 pages you have not demonstrated that OSAS is a valid doctrine, which is demonstrated by your use of "genuine believer" and "they were never saved in the first place".
Hubris? Now before you get personal and hostile, I suggest you examine your very own words to avoid hypocrisy. My argument that "the faith" is not the same as "faith" is reminiscent of Jehovah's Witnesses contention that God (theos) is not the same as the God (ho theos) in John 1:1? CONTEXT! Obviously God (theos) and God (theos) are indeed the same in John 1:1. Not only is that absurd since you singled out one verse, but you minus will take into consideration that the word "all" means "ALL" each time it is mentioned. There are passages where all is literally rendered "all" and there are instances where all is considered (some of all types) or (individually). The word "God" (theos) in the Greek New Testament can refer either to pagan or false gods or the One True God Yahweh depending on the
context it is used. Matt. 22:32 uses "
The God" (theos) of Abraham while 2 Cor. 4:4 uses "
the god" (theos) of this world, anyone can see in plain context that God (theos) found in Matt. 22:32 is not the same as 2 Cor. 4: common sense. You then proceed to say "
When Jesus healed He did not tell those He healed it was done because of "the faith" but because of "their faith." Confused? That is, exactly my point, it is "their faith" (
personal:Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20 ) and not "the faith" which made them whole, so how is "the faith" and "their faith" the same? Now despite the fact that you used a poor analogy, how is "the faith" interpreted in CONTEXT of those passages?
- Holding the mystery of the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)
- Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
- For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)
- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept) the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:
- For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)
- Which some professing have erred(astocheo:deviate from)concerning the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)
In the book of 1 Timothy alone where the Conditional Adherents well esteemed "shall depart from the faith" is mentioned, each time the phrase "THE FAITH" is used on context, it is rendered as (THE GOSPEL) or truthfulness of God.
How can someone fall away from something they never had? 1 Timothy 4:1 does not refer to personal faith, it refers to those who walk away from the truth of Christianity or the Gospel. "Fall away" [868]. (aphistemi) is found 16 times in the New Testament and only once(Lk. 8:13) in context does it represent departure of faith having
once believed. The remaining 14 represents abandonment or withdrawal. Logic and common sense tells us that you do not have to possess faith to abandon or withraw yourself from it. Luke 8:13 (
fell on stony places)refers to shallow-hearted individuals who
anon (at once) receive (outwardly) the message with joy, who had no root. So anyone who at once receiving the word of joy is considered saved? Hebrews 3:12 is given by Paul to His "brethren" (professing believers) to examine themselves whether they are true believers, or whether they have an "EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF" which clearly indicates an unregenerate heart.
God Bless!