ArchivedOSAS revisitedAineo wrote:Really? It seems to me that when all Bible dictionaries define "apostasy" the same way and you take exception to the definition it is you who refuse to accept the context not only of the definition but Scriptures that contain the English or Greek word that means apostasy.
Hmmm..... lets see for ourselves who fails to take the precise defintion of the word "apostasy in context. Lets examine in context your bolded section of the apostasy being defined.
Aineo wrote:
APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)
APOSTASY
A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).
Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).
In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).
Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Now lets see mines: (P.S. The large fonts isn't me yelling)
(Omega) wrote:
APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and (not actual possessors of true salvation), otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)
APOSTASY
A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).
Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).
In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).
Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Aineo wrote:Well, at least you have finally posted something worth reading, but here again you are taking 1 John out of context. For instance explain 1 John 3:9 in light of this:
1 John 1:5-10
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. KJV
1 reason I like the NAS over the KJ is that 1 John 3:9 reads:
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. NAS
The same comment applies to 1 John 5:19 since according to you it contradicts 1 John 1:5-10. As to 1 John 5:4 this verse is actually one that proves my point not yours since John writes that we overcome by faith.
Yeah...Ok Aineo, thats fantastic. I agree with your NAS translation, however I don't see your relation between apostasy and faith. Apostasy is defined as rejection of "the faith" which by definition is the revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ and the redemption through His atoning sacrifice. If you were to go back several posts you will see that The New Unger's Bible Dictionary agrees to this. Secondly apostasy is committed by a professing Christian and not necessarily someone who possesses faith. I don't see how overcoming by faith and departing from the faith is related? You failed to take into consideration (1 John 5:4) which states that "whatsoever is born of God (overcometh) the world" This brings me back to the age old question: Prove that those who commit apostasy either lost their salvation or once obtained it by faith.
Aineo wrote:Now lets take a look at John 1:12-13
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
KJV
Verse 12 plainly states that “as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. Verse 13 then tells us that we are born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. These two verses do not even indicate OSAS all they indicate is God gives those who receive Jesus are given the power to become sons of God.
And? When do we become sons of God? When we believe on his name and when we receive him. (John 1:12) What your are stating is that you, me, nor the apostles of Christ were ever considered the sons of God until the end.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)
1 John 3:2 utterly refutes your argument, the words "are we" (esmen) is in the present tense which indicates that we are the sons of God at the occuring time and not the future.
Aineo wrote:This statement is simply ludicrous since those who fall into apostasy are those who once stood on God’s truth and then start to teach false doctrine like Jesus is not the only path to salvation and that committed gay relationships are okay in the eyes of a Holy God. In other words as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Billy Graham and Mel White have both fallen in gross theological error, which is the definition of apostasy. Also you have misquoted me I did not post that White and Graham have fallen away from the faith, I posted they have become apostate. Falling away and apostasy as not the same thing but they have the same result and that result is an eternity in the lake of fire as per God’s revealed truth.
The New Unger's Bible defines Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. According to the New Unger's Bible dictionary, defining Billy Graham and Mel White as "apostates" is contradicting and does not prove that either Billy Graham or Mel White actually LOST their Salvation.
Aineo wrote:Once again how can one fall way or depart from something they never possessed in the first place? However, James states that demons “believe” but demons do not confess that Jesus Christ is Lord so you are again trying to establish your thesis by ignoring parts of Scripture.
Matthew 8:29
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV
I fail to see how you get that these demons declared Jesus Christ is Lord. All they did was acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God. In other words those demons did not meet the criteria of believing and confessing that Jesus Christ is their Lord, they confessed Jesus Christ is their judge!
So basically what you are in essence are saying is that their Judge is not their Lord, thats like me calling Jesus my judge and denying that He is also Lord. But I suppose the demons can obtain salvation by actually saying that "Jesus is Lord"? You missed my point, my point is that the demons also believe as those who fall away also believe, thus there is a distinction between just belief and the belief that saves. How do we distinguish between the two? Jesus spoke about it in the parables of a belief that is rooted and a belief that isn't. The only passage that proves that you can in fact "fall away" after once believing as found in Luke 8:13, however this does not prove that those who do either lost their salvation or obtained it. Lets see what Jesus Himself has to say in regards to falling away from belief. To state that the person who "falls away" once obtained Salvation is preposterous as saying that the unfruitful can be considered as born-again. In John 15:2 Jesus states that the branch that does not bring forth (no fruit) is taken away, and that the branch that does produce fruits are "pruned" meaning cleansed. And that only by abiding in Him can there be production of fruits. If you take into consideration of how exactly one falls away as spoken by Jesus Himself, you will see that those who "fall away" are false professors of Christianity that have never produced fruit (unregenerate). In the parable of the sower and the four soils, all but one actually give life and produces fruit while all others remain in their desolate state. John 15:1-8 is parallel to Mark 4:2-20. There are four kinds of people who hear the Gospel. There are unresponsive people, they by the wayside fail to respond to the see or word (Gospel) sown, so Satan quickly removes it lest they be saved (Lk. 8:12). Then there are impulsive people, the stony ground, are those who immediately receive the word (the Gospel), but not counting the cost, have no root in themselves. They believe for a while (Lk. 8:13) but soon are offended ( defect from the truth) because of persecution. Their rejection of the Gospel is just as speedy as their reception of it. Then there are preoccupied people, those among thorns, who allow the (cares of this world) and the (deceitfulness of riches and lusts) to take priority over the gospel. Finally there are those who on the good ground, hear and receive (take to heart) the gospel, which "(bears the fruit) of faith, obedience and fidelity in them" Jesus clearly associates those (fall away) fail to bring forth fruit and is a clear indication of someone who is unregenerate. A branch is not always considered a saved person because Jesus Himself said "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" There are dried and withered branches which are fruitless, then there is the branch that abides in the vine and continually produces fruit by pruning. The person who "departs from the faith" or "falls away" is not only a person who fails to produce fruit, but also a dried and withered branch that does not abide in the vine.
Aineo wrote:You insist this thread deals with salvation and then attempt to side step how we are saved.
Luke 7:44-50
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
KJV
Luke 18:39-43
39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.
KJV
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV
Sorry Aineo, but LOL!
So the bolded words are proof that they were in fact saved? If so, how do you reconcile this comment?
Aineo wrote:So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.
Aineo wrote:Now since you keep insisting those who fall way were never saved in the first place, my question still stands: “How do you know who is and who is not saved?” You insist that you are saved, which is between you and God and something I cannot comment on since I do not know what is in your heart. So you tell me how you know what is in the heart of those who fall away and/or become apostate? The truth is you cannot and to make the statement “they were never saved in the first place” is an attempt to place yourself as the judge of mankind.
Also you have yet to establish that once saved a person cannot loose their salvation, especially in light of what Jesus and Paul plainly teach and both plainly teach that men will fall away as the result of tribulation and following false prophets who teach false doctrine and to deny that this is true is to call Jesus and the Holy Spirit liars.
Oh and btw, the characteristics of a born again believer you posted, I know lots of cult members who meet your criteria or again have you forgotten the debate with the oneness groups especially those from the United Pentecostal Church. One characteristic you failed to post is:
Aineo, in all honesty, I don't know if the UPC members were in fact "born of God" and not just self-professed Christians. I can claim to be born of God and at the same time be an impulsive murderer. Secondly, it cannot be proven that those who fall away actually possessed salvation, if you read this entire post carefully it will substantiate this.
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. NAS
Aineo, who is it that does the "will of God"?
Those who were born of God, thats who.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
Aineo wrote:How do I reconcile Jesus' teaching that only those who endure to the end will be saved? I don't, I simply blieve it as truth. And if you put what I posted in context of the original post I was asking you how you can determine who is and who is not saved since "they were never saved in the first place" could easily apply to all professed Christians who are not part of the first resurrection. And that includes OSAS advocates and conditional security advocates since God is no respector of persons and will not judge us based on "essential doctrines of Christianity" put on His criteria, which is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
You believe or you know? I can simply believe also that they were never saved in the first place, does this necessarily make it true? I have already pointed to numerous scriptures which prove that salvation cannot be lost, so what are the other scenarios? However you won't accept this even after I proved it on many of my posts. If you go back to your previous response, you pointed to those who were saved (salvation) by their faith according to Jesus' response to them, if that were true then how do you reconcile "enduring to the end" to be saved?
Aineo, I have been through each and every one of those arguments found in your second post directly above this before. Your reposting the same questions which I have already answered in my previous posts in an endless debate. You have in essence wasted your time quoting (Matt. 24:4-13; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Thess. 2:1-4; Rev. 2:8-11)
Go back and read who it is that "overcomes" and who it is that "falls away"
The word for "be offended" is [4624] skandalizo, skan-dal-id'-zo; from 4625; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend. And this does not prove that those who apostasize or "stumble" actually possessed Salvation, this has been repeated too many times before.
Aineo wrote:The only people who can die twice are those who are born twice and the only people born twice are Christians who are born again in accordance with what Jesus told Nicodemus. Now unless you can prove by Scripture that those who die in their sins are born twice and die twice you cannot establish OSAS as a sound doctrine.
What is truly said about those who advocate OSAS is that those who are born again and then willfully sin such as Mel White or become apostate like Billy Graham live with a false sense of security that is not taught in Scripture.
Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV
Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV
The only people who can die twice are those who are born twice? I'm not quite sure if I get this, and if I do then your argument doesn't really make any sense. Your interpretation of the "second death" is way out of context. What does the "second death" imply? The scriptures never refer to death as the mere cessation of life, but instead as the unnatural separation of something from which it belongs. Therefore a body without a spirit suffers physical death (Gen. 35:18). The expression "second death" defines the separation of a man from God. Human consciousness is conveyed in the biblical description of second death, suggesting that the beast and the false prophet will both remain alive for a thousand years after being cast into the lake of fire. Thus an unbelieving person can die once physically and suffer the effect of a "second death" in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels because of their unbelief. So how do Christians die twice? Do you consider devil worshippers among the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars? and if so, were they born twice?
God Bless!
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