Christian/Muslim ThreadsScholar Bart Ehrman confess that the Bible we have is ....One of the Islamic Scholars you have stated is my favorite (Ibn Hazm) I read a lot of his books mysefl. I am Zahary. I was the only one in my two who follows Zaharaya Mathab (Zaharaya way). Anyways, I have told you before two things: 1- Do not repeat others words like a parrot. Try to look for the sources yourself. 2- Do not give a lot words without no sense. You gave me a long article to assure your idea but, where did the Muslims scientists say that? Where are the main sources from their books? In which epistle of Ibn al-layth did he say that? For whom did Ibn al-layth send his epistle? I really did not get who do you mean by al-Layth . If you mean Al-Layth the Imam who lived in Egypt in the second Islamic century, you are totally wrong. You should read his fiqh first before you talk about the man. I will suppose you are right, although that is impossible for an Imam like “Al- Layth Ibn Sad”. And I repeat that is impossible, anyways, and I say it is impossible for many logical reasons, 1- Quran ordered Christians to the idea of trinity [4]. While Anajeel (Gospels) assure this idea. 2- Quran desribes the people who said Jesus is a God with unbelief [5]. While Anajeel (Gospels) consider them the only faithful believers. 3- Quran differs from the Anajeel “Gospels” in the main though, Quran describes the people who believe in trinity with unbelief [5]. 4- Quran assures that Isa (Jesus) is just a human being like Adam (Peace of Allah be upon them both) [3] 5- Quran assures that Isa (Jesus) (Peace of Allah be upon him and his pure Mother) glad tidings to messenger will come after him called Ahmed [61]. Which we will assure it with very clear evidences in my next article InshaAllah. Christians refuse this idea. 6- Quran assures that Isa (Jesus) (Peace of Allah be upon him and his pure Mother) is a messenger of God and denies the Christian thought about him of being killed on the cross [4]. 7- Quran states that Christians forget some parts of their real Holy Book [5]. So, for all of these differences between the Quran the Bible in the basic belief, it makes unimpossibility for Imam like Al-Layth to say something against his main belief. Otherwise how does it come for a Muslim believe in the Quran after reading and understanding all of the verses in the Quran can imagine the Bible have not been corrupted. Indeed The Bible is still being corrupted until now 2006? And Ibn layth was not an ordinary man, he was a good Muslim scholar InshaAllah. Second, do you think anyone can believe the Bible is not corrupted after reading something like that? Mark 1:9-13 (New International Version) {9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." 12At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, 13and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.} Compare that to John 1 (New International Version) {32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God." 35The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"} Which one should we believe? How does it come? Did the Spirit send him out into the desert for forty days? Or John met him in the next day? Do you want one of many more? John 3:13-15 (New International Version) {13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.} Compare this to Genesis 5:24 (New International Version) {24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.} 2 Kings 2:11 (New International Version) {11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.} Although I think I talked enough about this subject. I found an important person your writer E. J. Brill Leiden 1996 (Brill Academic Publishers 1997) have stated him in the list, Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838-923)? Have you ever tried to read his tafsir (Explanations) for the verses of the Quean before citing his tafsir (Explanations)? Here is a small lesson I hope you really learn from it. Never repeat others words like a parrot? Do not be immature. I am just going to give you a simple evidence to assure for you and everyone here how much your author avoided the truth or she might not read Tafsir Al-Tabari like how it should be. That is the main context for the explanation for the verse of the Quran by Al-Tabari for [5] to assure for you and all the people who cares here that they studying of you writer was not right. يقول عزّ ذكره: وأخذنا من النصارى الـميثاق علـى طاعتـي وأداء فرائضي واتبـاع رسلـي والتصديق بهم، فسلكوا فـي ميثاقـي الذي أخذته علـيهم منهاج الأمة الضالة من الـيهود، فبدّلوا كذلك دينهم ونقضوا نقضهم وتركوا حظهم من ميثاقـي الذي أخذته علـيهم بـالوفـاء بعهدي وضيعوا أمري. كما: حدثنا بشر، قال: ثنا يزيد، قال: ثنا سعيد، عن قتادة: { وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ قالُوا إنَّا نَصَارَى أخَذْنا مِيثاقَهُمْ فَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِـمَّا ذُكَّرُوا بِهِ }: نسوا كتاب الله بـين أظهرهم، وعهد الله الذي عهده إلـيه، وأمر الله الذي أمرهم به. حدثنا مـحمد بن الـحسين، قال: ثنا أحمد بن مفضل، قال: ثنا أسبـاط، عن السديّ، قال: قالت النصارى مثل ما قالت الـيهود، ونسوا حظًّا مـما ذكِّروا به……….. So as you see here Al-Tabari stated that Christians took the same way of Jews who are astray. Also they CHANGE THEIR RELIGION and they broke their promises. And that is the Al-Tabari himself described Christians with losing the straight way and ignorance. That is the main context for the explanation for the verse of the Quran by Al-Tabari for [5] هذا ذمّ من الله عزّ ذكره للنصارى والنصرانـية الذين ضلوا عن سبل السلام، واحتـجاج منه لنبـيه مـحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم فـي فريتهم علـيه بـادعائهم له ولداً، يقول جلّ ثناؤه: أقسم لقد كفر الذين قالوا: إن الله هو الـمسيح بن مريـم، وكفرهم فـي ذلك تغطيتهم الـحقّ فـي تركهم نفـي الولد عن الله جلّ وعزّ، وادّعائهم أن الـمسيح هو الله فرية وكذبـاً علـيه. وقد بـينا معنى الـمسيح فـيـما مضى بـما أغنى عن إعادته فـي هذا الـموضع. القول فـي تأويـل قوله تعالـى: { قُلْ فَمَنْ يَـمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيئْاً إنْ أرَادَ أنْ يُهْلِكَ الـمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَـمَ وأُمَّهُ وَمَنْ فِـي الأرْضِ جَمِيعاً }. يقول جلّ ثناؤه لنبـيه مـحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم: قل يا مـحمد للنصارى الذين افتروا علـيّ، وضلوا عن سواء السبـيـل، بقـيـلهم: إن الله هو الـمسيح ابن مريـم { مَنْ يَـمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئاً } يقول: من الذي يطيق أن يدفع من أمر الله جلّ وعزّ شيئاً، فـيردّه إذا قضاه من قول القائل: ملكت علـى فلان أمره: إذا صار لا يقدرأن ينفذ أمراً إلا به. وقوله: { إنْ أرادَ أنْ يُهْلِكَ الـمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَـمَ وأُمَّهُ وَمَنْ فـي الأرْضِ جَمِيعاً } يقول: من ذا الذي يقدر أن يردّ من أمر الله شيئاً إن شاء أن يهلك الـمسيح ابْن مريـم بإعدامه من الأرض وإعدام أمه مريـم، وإعدام جميع من فـي الأرض من الـخـلق جميعاً. يقول جلّ ثناؤه لنبـيه مـحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم: قل لهؤلاء الـجهلة من النصارى لو كان الـمسيح كما يزعمون أنه هو الله، ولـيس كذلك لقدَر أن يردّ أمر الله إذا جاءه بـاهلاكه وإهلاك أمه، وقد أهلك أمه فلـم يقدر علـى دفع أمره فـيها إذ نزل ذلك، ففـي ذلك لكم معتبر إن اعتبرتـم، وحجة علـيكم إن عقلتـم فـي أن الـمسيح بشر كسائر بنـي آدم، وأن الله عزّ وجلّ هو الذي لا يغلب ولا يقهر ولا يردّ له أمر، بل هو الـحيّ الدائم القـيوم الذي يُحيى ويـميت، وينشىء ويفنـي، وهو حيّ لا يـموت. So do you still think someone like Al-Tabari just thought Jews corrupted their books? We do not need a proof more what? Ibn Hazm has his own books Friend Kai. Have you read any one it before you write? When you talk about God and His words, it is not just copy and paste? It is tracing and long years of searching. In the scientific discussion, you should state the source. It is the same problem of the Bible itself, just translation without a source. When I started my first article here I said “Mr. Bart Ehram confesses..." then I gave you the source. You gave me an idea of a person who is not Muslim Let us just give some lights about your smart points, Really, do you think people the oldest one of them from the 3rd century can be considerate like the first Muslims? What is about the Muslim from first and second Islamic centuries? What is about Abo Bakr, Omar Ibn El-Khatab,... and others of our prophet's friends? The people who lived during our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) themselves? Do you believe yourself brother? What is really interesting in this article what you have said, You stated three Islamic scientists do not affect the Muslims’ minds at all. The people who said the Bible is corrupted and affected the Muslims’ minds, whose are the people that still affect the Muslim's minds until now. The four Imams, 1-An-Númān ibn Thābit (699 - 765) 2-Malik ibn Anas ibn Malik ibn 'Amr al-Asbahi (715 - 796) 3-Abu 'Abd Allah ash-Shafi'i (767 - 820) 4- Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal (780 - 855) And as you see, all of them were in the second Islamic century More than 98% percent around the world of Sunni Muslims follows their teaching until now. Plus al-Bukhari (810 - 870 AD) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukhari and Muslim (810-870) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_b._al-Hajjaj Every Muslim even if who is converted knows who are those people. You stated seven scicents really does not effect us plus you did not state the name of their books for example, What is really funny that not many people in the entire Islamic world, especially in Arabic world know someone called, "Ibn Hazm". Very few people around the world and I am one of them who are zahary mathab and follows his Mathab. By the way, in his Book, "El- Mohala bel Athar" he stated everything in details about the earlier Muslims opinions about the Bible. "El-Mohala bel Athar"threen parts. Go and read. Note: Even if Al-Azhar in Egypt does not study Ibn-Hazm Mathab for their students. I think you mean ibn Qutayba (828-889), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Qutayba And as you see he is from the 3 century of Islam, not from the first Muslims. And as you see "Ibn Qutayba used the Torah not only as a book in which the advent of the Prophet is foretold but also as a historical source ". Ahamed Deddat used the Bible to assure that Jesus was just a messenger of God and he always believed the Bible is corrupted. And many Unbelievers use the Bible as historical document in some cases. But that does not mean they believe in it or they believe in everything it contains. Some Christians believed that our Prophet Mohamed (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) is the greatest man in the history, although they never believe in him as a Messenger. Go and read The 100, Michael H. Hart, Carol Publishing Group, July 1992. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100 Moreover that, I will assure to you how is your book corrupted and it is still until now, 2005 in further blow of this article InshaAllah. The last thing about this issue, we do not need any opinion about the corrupted of the Bible from anyone, we have the Quran judgment about this issue? And it is so enough for us? Really?! First of all, which Torah (Old Testament) and Injeel (New Testament) do you refer to it brother? Protestant Bible (Old and New Testament) (with 66 Books) or Catholic Bible (with 73 Books)! I wish to know which Bible do you want me to use to argue with you but? It seems to me you are Protestant with 66 Books in the Holy Book. Note: Argument with Catholics differs from argument with Protestants. That is not Our subject right now. Let us take into our consideration a real facts about the First Christians you might not understand it. And when I say here First Christians, I mean Jesus’ disciples (Peace of Allah be upon him and his pure mother), not 3rd century like how you cite before? The Anajeel (Gospels) tell us that Jesus lived all his life like any righteous Jew. From his Birthday until him death (According to Christians Theory): 1- After a Jewish mother gave birth to a son, is considered unclean until the baby circumcised (Leviticus 12:1-2). So, Mary was unclean (The mother of God was unclean!!!). So, after the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were finished she and Josef took the baby to the temple in Jerusalem (Luke 2:22-23) to present him to God according to Law of Moses (Exodus 13:2, 12). 2- Juses circumcised when he was 8 days like any Jewish child (Luke 2:21). Then Mary and Josef offered a sacrifice to God (a pair of doves or two young pigeons) (Luke 2: 24) according to Law of Moses (Leviticus 12: 8 ). |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame