Muslim gladiator wrote:
The Anajeel (Gospels) tell us that Jesus lived all his life like any righteous Jew. From his Birthday until him death (According to Christians Theory):
1- After a Jewish mother gave birth to a son, is considered unclean until the baby circumcised (Leviticus 12:1-2). So, Mary was unclean (The mother of God was unclean!!!). So, after the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were finished she and Josef took the baby to the temple in Jerusalem (Luke 2:22-23) to present him to God according to Law of Moses (Exodus 13:2, 12).
2- Juses circumcised when he was 8 days like any Jewish child (Luke 2:21). Then Mary and Josef offered a sacrifice to God (a pair of doves or two young pigeons) (Luke 2: 24) according to Law of Moses (Leviticus 12: 8 ).
3- Mary and Josef used to go to Jerusalem every year to celebrate the Passover (Luke 2:41), like any ordinary Jews.
4- Once upon a time during the Passover, Mary and Josef lost Jesus and they found him in the temple (Jewish place for worship) asking and listening to the Jewish teachers. (Luke 2:46).
5- Juses used to use Old Testament in his arguments with others (Matthew 12:5) even if with the devil (Luke 4:1-13).
6- Jesus used to teach in the Jewish Temple (Mark 12:35).
7- Jesus paid tax to support the temple (Matthew 17:24-25). Jewish men paid this tax to support the temple; [Exodus 30:11-16].
Kai replies:
Of course the temple was originally a divine establishment
Muslim gladiator wrote:
8- One of the last advices of Jesus for his disciples to obey the Jewish teachers of the Moses’ law and the Pharisees [Matthew 23: 1-3].
Kai replies:
Not entirely correct! If you read Matthew 15 and Matthew 23, e.g. the Pharisees are not to be followed, yet their teachings could be considered. But then again Jesus rebukes them due to their teaching; in other words, not everything a rabbi says is necessarily from God.
This is particularly true of Matthew 15, where Jesus rejects the traditions of the fathers, which would be Midrash, Talmud etc.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
9- Jesus did not come with a new Law. He did come to abolish the Law of Moses and other prophets but to complete it. [Matthew 5:17]. Then he stated that anyone broke the commandants and teach other will be away of the truth. [Matthew 5:19].
Kai replies:
Not correct:
‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them’ (Matthew 5: 17)
Where is the abolishment here?
And what do you mean by abolishing the prophets?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
10- The People used to call Jesus son of David. And all of us know that David was a Jewish king [Matthew 21:9].
11- According to the Gospel of Matthew Jesus described himself as a king of Jews [Matthew 27:11].
Kai replies:
Correct
Muslim gladiator wrote:
12- According to the Christians’ Theory Jesus killed on the Cross (crucified), anyways, after his death the Anajeel (Gospels) tell us that Jesus’ Friends wound his body in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. [John 19:40].
Kai replies:
Do you not consider it strange that Jesus was taken to heaven alive? I mean what was the point?
And then again why is Muhammad rotting up in a grave? Has he no significance for the end time?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
13- Even if the disciples of Jesus were so worried about some information that Paul taught all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs [Acts 21:21 (New King James Version)].
Kai replies:
Certainly there were rumours of this.
Yet read the epistles, Paul is not expecting Gentiles to become Jews! Or follow Jewish practice, but neither does he strictly prohibit it (Gal. 5: 6: 6: 15).
As for Paul being a Jew, he would have no problem being involved with its practice.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
14- Then the disciples asked Paul to assure for the Jews who believed that he did not forsake Moses’ law by purifying himself with four persons. He should Shave his head with them and pay the expenses of shaving their heads too. So everyone can understand that Paul was still following the law of Moses [Acts 21:21 (New King James Version)].
15- Finally Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them [Acts 21:26]
16- Even if the Jews who believed in Jesus followed the Law of Moses and they were zealous for it [Acts 21:20].
Kai replies:
Of course, apart of Christianity, Judaism, or more correctly the religion of the Old Testament is the only teaching we accept.
We do not judge Jews for being Jews.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
In the Quran sometimes it stated the term “People of the Book” or “People of the Script” (Whatever translators translate the term, it means Jews and Christians) while it just refers one of them. For General people they think this term always refers for them both. And I can say, yes that is right most of time.
Here are the Quran states the term “People of the People” while it verse refers to Jews only [3].
{ يَسْأَلُكَ أَهْلُ ٱلْكِتَابِ أَن تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْهِمْ كِتَاباً مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ فَقَدْ سَأَلُواْ مُوسَىٰ أَكْبَرَ مِن ذٰلِكَ فَقَالُوۤاْ أَرِنَا ٱللَّهَ جَهْرَةً فَأَخَذَتْهُمُ ٱلصَّاعِقَةُ بِظُلْمِهِمْ ثُمَّ ٱتَّخَذُواْ ٱلْعِجْلَ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَتْهُمُ ٱلْبَيِّنَاتُ فَعَفَوْنَا عَن ذٰلِكَ وَآتَيْنَا مُوسَىٰ سُلْطَاناً مُّبِيناً }
Kai replies:
Correct according to the Koran Christians and Jews are the people of the Book, but occasionally it is only used for the one party.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran [4] by Arthur J. Arberry
“[4]The People of the Book will ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from heaven; and they asked Moses for greater than that, for they said, ’Show us God openly.’ And the thunderbolt took them for their evildoing. Then they took to themselves the Calf, after the clear signs had come to them; yet We pardoned them that, and We bestowed upon Moses a clear authority.”
The verse obviously refers to the Jews only. Christians did not ask Moses?
Kai replies:
I agree
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Compare that to this Verse from the same Surah of the Quran [4: 171]
Here are the Quran states the term “People of the People” while it verse refers to Christian only [4].
{ يٰأَهْلَ ٱلْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلاَّ ٱلْحَقَّ إِنَّمَا ٱلْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ ٱنتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا ٱللَّهُ إِلَـٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي ٱلأَرْضِ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ وَكِيلاً }
The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran [4] by Arthur J. Arberry
{[4]People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, ’Three.’ Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.}
The verse obviously refers to the Jews only. Jews do not say God is three or Jesus is a son of God?
Kai replies:
I guess you mean Christians only
Muslim gladiator wrote:
What is the main point of all of that? The main point that For us Muslims, Christians are Jews or another class of Jews. Because they are originally came from Jews roots. All the evidences refer to that. So when they Quran talks about that people who changed the words from its place, or corruption or perversion the verses and refers to Jews, it means also Christians.
Kai replies:
That is not what the text said! You can’t interpret a text in one way and contradict it in the second line.
We both agreed that Christians and Jews are the people of the Book, but the Koran refers to them separately in various situation.
In the same way the passage referring to local Jews corrupting text, and who in fact corrupt the Koran as well, does not refer to Christians, but Jews. But then again not all Jews.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Christians are just Jews take another way. The earliest Christians followed the Law of Moses, they entered the temple. Jesus asked them to follow the teachers for Moses in their teaching but do not act like that. All of that has been explained before. That is why Quran used the term “People of the Book” referring to once for Jews and Once for Christians.
Kai replies:
I don’t see the logic
The early Christians only practiced Judaism if they were Jews
Gentile Christians usually refrained from it
When the Koran is given, Christians according to your view are corrupted, as they have denied Moses, Jesus and the true book.
Then in what sense is the Koran still referring to Jews, or the people of the Book.
Could you please expound on this?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
It is not my own desire to say that, Quran supported my idea. Others too
Kai replies:
What does it say?
In what sense does it support your idea (because that is what it is, and you have ADMITTED IT, AN IDEA); your idea is speculative, contradictory to the Koran and illogical.
I fail to see how you gain any support from your Book!
The Koran is clearly stating that you have gone astray; that you are going to hell for disbelieving and attacking the previous Scripture.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah#Judaism_and_Christianity
The Quran was so accurate saying Jews corrupted the Bible (Old and New Testaments) because you are just grandson’s sons of Jews.
By looking at the term Christians we would understand more about this issue. For Jews there is a religion called “Judaism” and a messenger called Moses (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him). For Muslims there is a religion called “Islam” and a prophet called “Mohamed” (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him”. But for Christians there just a messenger called “Jesus Christ” or "Jesus the anointed" (Mercy and peace of Allah be upon him) and that is why they Christians.
Kai replies:
Where does it state, in the Bible or the Koran that we are grandsons of
Jews?
Consider John 10:
7 Then said Yahshua unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Or consider Ephesus 2:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Yahshua unto good works, which Elohim hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without Elohim in the world:
13 But now in Christ Yahshua ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto Elohim in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one (((Spirit,Presense of Elohim))) unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of Elohim;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Yahshua Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in Yahweh:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of Elohim through the (((Spirit,Presense of Elohim))).
As Christian we share in the promise of Israel, THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE JEWS; JEW AND ISRAEL IS A VERY DIFFERENT THING?
AND THEN AGAIN, ACCORDING TO THESE PASSAGES, IN WHAT SENSE ARE WE THE GRANDCHILDREN OF JEWS, AND IF WE WERE, WHO IS OUR FATHER.
AND THEN AGAIN, IF WE ARE GRAND CHILDREN OF JEWS, SHOULD THE MUSLIMS NOT BE CONSIDERED CHILDREN OR GRAND-CHILDREN OF CHRISTIANS?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
They have no real religion and that is right. They originally should follow the Law of Moses [Matthew 5: 17-19], [Matthew 23: 1-3]. [Acts 21:19-26].
Kai replies:
Earlier you state that Matthew 5 implies that Jesus abolished the law; NOW YOU CLAIM THAT THE PASSAGE BINDS EVERY CHRISTIAN INTO A JEWISH MINDSET; MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
BUT NO, why don’t you read the passage properly; does it say: Anyone who breaks the least of the commands of Moses? No! It says: Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments…(who is teaching
here, who is giving the commands here; Moses? No! Jesus!)
Frankly, I find your attempts to attack the Bible incredible embarrassing, and my advise is, read and understand the text; YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO IDEA OF WHERE YOU ARE HEADING.
Matthew 23 tells me not to follow the Pharisees and to receive their teaching with caution
Acts 21 is narrative, situational and implies that we have freedom to follow the Law or not
Muslim gladiator wrote:
And finally that is how Muslims Scientists see the Christians like just a part groups of Jews.
Kai replies:
WHERE IS THE KORANIC EVIDENCE FOR THAT
AND THEN AGAIN, IF WE ARE GOING TO TAKE IT FROM THAT ANGLE, THEN MUSLIMS ARE JUST A PART OF THE CHRISTIANS
AGAIN I TOTALLY FAIL TO GRASP YOUR LOGIC
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Quran [5]
{ لَقَدْ كَفَرَ ٱلَّذِينَ قَالُوۤاْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ هُوَ ٱلْمَسِيحُ ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ ٱلْمَسِيحُ يَابَنِيۤ إِسْرَائِيلَ ٱعْبُدُواْ ٱللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِٱللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيهِ ٱلْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ ٱلنَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ }
Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Arthur J. Arberry
{[5]They are unbelievers who say, ’God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ’Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’}
Here are the explanations of the Quran [5] by Al- Tabari
وهذا خبر من الله تعالـى ذكره عن بعض ما فَتَن به الإسرائيـلـيـين الذين أخبر عنهم أنهم حسبوا أن لا تكون فتنة. يقول تعالـى ذكره: فكان مـما ابتلـيتهم واختبرتهم به فنقضوا فـيه ميثاقـي وغيروا عهدي الذي كنت أخذته علـيهم، بأن لا يعبدوا سواي ولا يتـخذوا ربـاً غيري، وأن يوحدونـي، وينتهوا إلـى طاعتـي عبدي عيسى ابن مريـم، فإنـي خـلقته وأجريت علـى يده نـحو الذي أجريت علـى يد كثـير من رسلـي، فقالوا كفراً منهم: هو الله
Al-Tabari here stated that the Israeli people (Children of Israel) said in a disbelief way that Jesus is God. And of course Jews themselves did not say that, but Christians did.
Kai replies:
Considering the way you are misusing the various texts, you will have to translate the Arabic text above
And as to the verse, the first Christians who Jesus talked to were all Jews.