Christian/Muslim ThreadsA Proof :Quran is original and cannot be changedI appreciate your honesty in referencing the content of your posts. You are off to a much better start… The website that you referenced does provide a good starting point….however, it is self-limiting due to the fact that it does not offer access to classic Arabic Lexicography. The “Dictionary” offering is woefully inadequate at providing a thorough exegetical analysis of the text in question, as it pre-defines the Arabic words for you. In effect, it does no more for you than the popular English renderings that you like to use so much…
Can you please tell us what sources these authors used in their renderings…? Obviously...they are quite different in meaning. For example….Ali uses the term “Trinity”…when, in fact, the term does not even exist in the classic Arabic in which your book of faith was penned. Thus….an obvious Muslim biased embellishment has occurred.
Again…the author of this piece gives absolutely no Lexical references for why he rendered the Arabic as he did. You must remember that what Muslims call “tafsirs” are not anything close to what Christians call an exegesis. Tafsirs are little more than the unreferenced opinion of the authors who are writing the piece. Tafsirs fall apart like a wet paper bag when challenged. If the author of that Tasfir had gone just a little further in his references to sura 3, then he would have discovered that Jesus was not created and that He is, in fact, God Almighty – same as proclaimed in the Holy Bible…and later copied into the Koran… 3.59 unequivocally proclaims that Jesus has always existed. 3.59… إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu Our position is thus… Jesus was not created. Furthermore…Jesus is co-equal with God. 3.59 amply demonstrates these points… Let’s look… إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ The authors’, who penned the Muslim book of faith, first used the following Arabic term when comparing Jesus to “allah”… مَثَلُ = “Mathalu” “Mathalu” definition: Noun. Parable, likeness, similitude, like, reason, proverb, discourse, equivalent, comparison, sign, lesson, an example, case, state, condition, argument, match, an analogue. It comes from the root “mathala”, which means to resemble, imitate, compare any one with, be or look like some one, bear a likeness. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 3017 - 3018 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 525 - 526 Already…we can clearly see the comparison of Jesus to “allah” is one of: • Similitude • Equivalent • Analogue • Resemble • Bear a likeness Now…look at the next Arabic term used when comparing Jesus to “allah”… عِندَ = “inda” “inda” definition: A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place. The vicinage, or the quarter, tract, region, or place, of a person or thing. Used in the manner pf a preposition, though properly a prefixed noun signifying a place (or anything local); of time when prefixed to a noun signifying a time: denoting presence, i.e. perceptible presence, and also ideal presence, or rather the place of presence; and nearness, or the place of nearness; or the utmost nearness, and therefore it has no dim.; i.e. it is primarily used in relation to that which is present with a person (or thing), in any adjacent part or quarter with respect to that person (or thing); or in relation to that which is near to a person (or thing); thus is signifies: at, near, nigh, by, near by, or close by, a place, or thing; with, present with, or in the presence of, a person or persons, or a thing or things; at the abode of a person; at the place of , or in the region of, a thing; or among , or amongst, persons or things: and at, near, nigh, or about, a time; and at, or on, or upon, denoting the occasion of an event or an action; here; with; by; at the point of; about; from; in the presence of. The word denotes the idea of nearness, it also denotes a sense of rank or dignity or opinion, time and place. عِندَ اللّهِ is generally best rendered: in the estimation, or sight of Allah. Sometimes it denotes comparison. Not alone. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2170 - 2172 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 391 Amazingly…not only does the classic Arabic tell us that Jesus is the equivalent or similitude “Mathalu” of “allah”…but we are also told that Jesus is present with “allah”…as “allah” is not alone…! The blatant fact that “allah” is not alone is confirmed elsewhere in your book of faith, as demonstrated in this grouping… إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin 81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy message. Occurrences of “laqawlun” in the Koran: 3 Locations: 69.40, 81.19, 86.13 We already know that sura 86 is discussing Jesus….and that Jesus is the WORD spoken of in 86.13… Then… ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ Thee quwwatin AAinda thee alAAarshi makeenin 81.20 Lord of power in the presence and possession of the throne, the established one. Here we are informed that “His Word” i.e. Jesus, is “inda”…or present at the throne. Furthermore…we are told that Jesus is “quwwatin” at the throne….i.e. singular; meaning “and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread” Interestingly….the authors’ of the Koran make the special point of illustrating that two things are “twisted” together to make one…! Then… مُطَاعٍ ثَمَّ أَمِينٍ MutaAAin thamma ameenin 81.21 Obeyed one there, Amen. Absolutely amazing…..the “two” that are actually “one” are now to be “mutaAAin”…i.e. “Obeyed one; who is entitled to be obeyed” Thus….it is crystal clear that Jesus is God Almighty. Straight from the Muslim book of faith, as penned by its’ authors… 3.59 consists of two separate comparisons. The first of these compares Jesus to “allah”. As demonstrated, the first portion of 3.59 tells us that Jesus is the similitude/equivalent of “allah”, and that Jesus is “inda”, i.e. with “allah”. Let’s now dig a little deeper into this ayah… إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu Observe the first particle… إِنَّ = “inna” “inna” definition: One of the particles which annul the quality of the inchoative: it is a corroborative particle, corroborating the predicate; governing the subject in the accusative case and the predicate in the nominative case; and may generally be rendered by: verily, or certainly, or the like; exactly agreeing with the Greek “hoti” #G3754, as used in Luke 7.16 and in many other passages in the New Testament; Luk 7:16 And1161 there came a fear5401, 2983 on all:537 and2532 they glorified1392 God,2316 saying,3004 That3754 a great3173 prophet4396 is risen up1453 among1722 us;2254 and,2532 That3754 God2316 hath visited1980 his848 people.2992 (Observe that this example given by Lane proclaims Jesus as God) though it often seems to be nothing more than a sign of inception, which can hardly be rendered at all in English; unless in pronunciation, by laying stress upon the predicate, or upon the copula. It must be used when it occurs inceptively, having nothing before it upon which is syntactically dependent, with respect to the wording or meaning. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 103 - 111 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 35 Thus, this is what we are told from the very start of this ayah: • “Inna” corroborates i.e. confirms; makes more certain; supports with evidence or authority the predicate (which expresses what is said of the subject, i.e. Jesus) • It is a sign of inception i.e. origin • Coupling this with “mathalu” and “inda” tells us quite clearly that the origin of Jesus has always been with “allah”. Next… Look at the fascinating classic Arabic definition for Jesus… عِيسَى = “eesa” “eesa” definition: Plural. Proper name; Jesus. Having a white color inclining towards black or reddish white, or white. Whiteness mixed with somewhat of red hue; whiteness in which is a mixture of clearness with slight darkness; or yellowish whiteness. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, p. 2210 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 396 – 398 Rounding-out the first comparison of 3.59… • Jesus is compared and confirmed as a co-equal with “allah” • Jesus has always existed with “allah” • Jesus was not created • Jesus is a plural noun, hence…He is more than one…an obvious clue to His Triune nature • The name Jesus means “whiteness mixed with somewhat of a red hue”…an obvious clue to Him being the sacrificial Lamb… Next…the word “kamathali”… إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu Defining the word… كَ = “ka” “ka” definition: When prefixed to a noun is called “ka” of comparison. A particle prefixed to nouns, and to other particles, and meaning “as” or “like”. It is a formally undeveloped noun, which occurs only as the governing word in the genitive connection, but runs in this position through all the relations of case (similitude, instar). Like, like that, so, similarly, likewise, even so, so shall it be, so the fact is. When prefixed to the noun مَثَلُ the latter is redundant, as in 2.261: Mathalu allatheena yunfiqoona amwalahum fee sabeeli Allahi kamathali habbatin anbatat sabAAa sanabila fee kulli sunbulatin mi-atu habbatin waAllahu yudaAAifu liman yashao waAllahu wasiAAun AAaleemun 2.261 (The) resemblance (of) those who spend their properties/wealth in Allah's way/sake (is) as/like (the) resemblance of a seed/grain (that) sprouted/grew seven ears/spikes, in every ear/spike (are) one hundred grain(s)/seed(s), and Allah doubles/multiplies for whom He wills/wants, and Allah (is) rich/abundant, knowledgeable. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 2998 A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 280 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 475 A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 122 - 123 Reviewing “mathalu” once more… مَثَلُ = “mathalu” “mathalu” definition: Noun. Parable, likeness, similitude, like, reason, proverb, discourse, equivalent, comparison, sign, lesson, an example, case, state, condition, argument, match, an analogue. It comes from the root “mathala”, which means to resemble, imitate, compare any one with, be or look like some one, bear a likeness. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 3017 - 3018 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 525 - 526 كَمَثَلِ = “ka” + “mathali” = “kamathali” = as/like Occurrences of “kamathali” in the Koran: 13 Locations: 2.17, 2.171, 2.261, 2.264, 2.265, 3.59, 3.117, 7.176, 29.41, 57.20, 59.15, 59.16, 62.5 Thus, as we can see for ourselves, that the defining of our terms is absolutely critical to the proper understanding of the ayah in question. There are two comparisons taking place in 3.59; the latter comparison is redundant to the former. This is per the classic Arabic definition. Period. Not the other way around as Muslims would like it to be. This then, forces Adam’s comparison to be likened to the comparison of Jesus to “allah”. So...the burning question is what is redundant about Adams’ comparison to that of Jesus’ comparison? Let’s review more terminology… The second (and redundant) comparison involves the creation of Adam. The first term utilized is خَلَقَهُ … خَلَقَ = “khalaqa” “khalaqa” definition: Masculine singular. He created, determined. Anything made smooth; signifying the being smooth, as such also in a rock, freedom from crack or fracture, and, as such, the being old and worn out, hence used as an epithet, old and worn out. It comes from the root “khalaqa”, which means the act of measuring; or determining the measure, proportion, or the like, of a thing; and the making a thing by measure, or according to the measure of another thing; or proportioning a thing to another thing. It signifies the bringing of a thing into existence according to a certain measure, or proportion, and so as to make it equal to another thing, or uniform therewith; or the originating or producing a thing after a pattern or model which one has devised, not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. As an act of God, it signifies the originating or bringing into being or existence anything not after the similitude of anything pre-existing; and the creating a thing; and thus it is generally best rendered; as meaning the bringing into existence from a state of no-existence. As an act of God, signifies the creating out of nothing. To measure, proportion, determine, fashion, create, form a thing, be fir, apt to a thing, behave kindly. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 799 - 803 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 163 - 164 هُ = “hu” “hu” definition: An indeclinable affixed personal or possessive pronoun of third person singular masculine; when affixed to a verb or preposition as a person pronoun, it means him or it; and when to a noun as a possessive, his or it. Singular personal or possessive pronoun. Him. Verbal suffix which expresses the accusative. References: A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 100 A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 152 خَلَقَهُ = “khalaqa” + “hu” = “khalaqahu” = He created him Occurrences of “khalaqahu” in the Koran: 6 Locations: 3.59, 20.50, 32.7, 36.78, 80.18, 80.19 Observe that in all instances of the Koranic usage of “khalaqahu”: • It is referring to man…not to Jesus • It is singular • It refers to the act of measuring; or determining the measure, proportion, or the like, of a thing; and the making a thing by measure, or according to the measure of another thing; or proportioning a thing to another thing • The originating or producing a thing after a pattern or model which one has devised, not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. • As meaning the bringing into existence from a state of no-existence. As an act of God, signifies the creating out of nothing Thus…we are told that Adam was created, i.e. he had a beginning (out of nothing), in the likeness of his creator. That Adam had a starting point, is confirmed by the next word… مِن = “min” “min” definition: A preposition signifying origin, composition, explanation, commencement, or separation; in its ordinary acceptation, it is equivalent to: of, from, or out of; or, when following a comparative, than; but it occasionally may be rendered: on, by, by reason of, some or a portion of, of the same kind as, after the manner of, etc. Used for expressing a starting point, part of a whole, origin as, from, of some amongst, of, from, on account of, References: A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 280 - 282 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 542 A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 140 - 141 Next, we are told that Adams’ nothingness starting point was from dust… تُرَابٍ = “turabin” “turabin” definition: Noun. Dust: and earth: generally the former; i.e. fine, dry, particles of earth. It comes from the root “tariba”, which means it (a thing) became dusted, or dusty; dust lighted upon it; it (a place) had much dust or earth; abounded with dust or earth. He (a man) had dust, or earth, in his hand; he clave to the dust or earth; or he clave to the dust or earth, by reason of poverty; he became so poor that he clave to the dust, or earth; and he suffered loss and became poor so that he clave to the dust, or earth; to have much earth, be full of earth, have dust in his hands, be destitute. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 300 - 301 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 74 A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 22 Occurrences of “turabin” in the Koran: 7 Locations: 2.264, 3.59, 18.37, 22.5, 30.20, 35.11, 40.67 Occurrences of the root “tariba” and its 4 forms in the Koran: 22 Locations: 2.264, 3.59, 13.5, 16.59, 18.37, 22.5, 23.35, 23.82, 26.67, 30.20, 35.11, 37.16, 37.53, 38.52, 40.67, 50.3, 56.37, 56.47, 78.33, 78.40, 86.7, 90.16 Reading each Koranic occurrence, in context, shows that the root, and all derivatives of the root, refers directly to a Resurrection event. Worthy of honorable mention is the creation of man as demonstrated in sura 86…which shares the same root as “turabin” used in 3.59… Observe the same “creation” of man similarities in these passages of sura 86… 86… .5 So, in order to inform mankind from “khuliqa” that which originated the inner man. .6 The inner man originated “khuliqa” from water pouring/jetting/flowing forcefully. .7 He comes forth from between the backbone/loins/spine and the “ttara-ibi” breast bone/rib bones….from the root “tariba”! .8 When His (is) upon/near/above He returned/was brought back the one who has power over. Since we are already cognizant of the fact that sura 86 is about Jesus and the “creation” of man through His Crucifixion, Death, and Resurrection…we can thus be confident that 3.59 is also demonstrating this very same thought process… Man was created through Jesus… Our next word denotes a sequence… ثُمَّ = “thumma” “thumma” definition: Then; i.e. afterward, or afterwards, a particle, or conjunction denoting order and delay; mostly used as a conjunction indicating a sequence in line or order to be rendered as then; thereafter; thereupon. It comes from the root “thamma”, which means he repaired it, or put it into a good, sound, or right, state; to pick up, collect, repair, heap up (things in a place). He collected it together; namely a thing. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 350 - 352 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 84 قَالَ = “qala” “qala” definition: Masculine singular. Said. It comes from the root “qala”, which means He said, or a word signifying at least one complete proposition; or a word signifying a command or the like; or a word significant of a sound; to speak, say, inspire, profess, grasp, point cut, relate, emit an opinion upon, think, answer, reply, transmit, indicate a condition state or circumstance. It is also used to describe the upshot of events without there being actual speech or dialogue. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2994 - 2995 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 469 - 471 Thus, we are informed of the creation sequence of Adam: • From nothing • Then dust • Then the Word Finally, the Word of “allah” is shown to have the power to bring into existence that which never existed… كُن = “kun” “kun” definition: Masculine singular. Be thou. It comes from the root “kana”, which means he, or it, was; to be, exist, happen, occur, take place, become, be such or so. A verb of the class called incomplete, because, with the agent that it comprises, or to which it relates, it cannot constitute a complete preposition; i.e. non-attributive. It governs its noun, or subject, in the nominative case, and it’s enunciative, or predicate, in the acc. case. Divested of all signification of time, is often used as a copula. As a complete, i.e., attributive verb. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3004 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 500 – 502 A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 128 - 129 يَكُونُ = “yakoonu” “yakoonu” definition: Masculine singular. Is. It comes from the root “kana”, which means he, or it, was; to be, exist, happen, occur, take place, become, be such or so. A verb of the class called incomplete, because, with the agent that it comprises, or to which it relates, it cannot constitute a complete preposition; i.e. non-attributive. It governs its noun, or subject, in the nominative case, and it’s enunciative, or predicate, in the acc. case. Divested of all signification of time, is often used as a copula. As a complete, i.e., attributive verb. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3004 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 500 – 502 A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 128 - 129 فَيَكُونُ = “fa” + “yakoonu” = “fayakoonu” Occurrences of “fayakoonu” in the Koran: 10 Locations: 2.117, 3.47, 3.49, 3.59, 6.73, 16.40, 19.35, 25.7, 36.82, 40.68 The power of the Word. We already know that the Koran proclaims Jesus as the Word…4.171… Where have we hear this before…? Let’s look to the Holy Bible… Joh 1:1 In1722 the beginning746 was2258 the3588 Word,3056 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 with4314 God,2316 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 God.2316 Joh 1:2 The same3778 was2258 in1722 the beginning746 with4314 God.2316 Joh 1:3 All things3956 were made1096 by1223 Him;846 and2532 without5565 Him846 was not3761 any thing1520 made1096 that3739 was made.1096 Joh 1:4 In1722 Him846 was2258 life;2222 and2532 the3588 life2222 was2258 the3588 light5457 of men.444 John tells us this: • The Word was in the beginning • The Word was with God • The Word was God • All things were made by the Word • In the Word was every living soul #G2222 “zōe” Joh 1:9 That was2258 the3588 true228 Light,5457 which3739 lighteth5461 every3956 man444 that cometh2064 into1519 the3588 world.2889 Joh 1:10 He was2258 in1722 the3588 world,2889 and2532 the3588 world2889 was made1096 by1223 him,846 and2532 the3588 world2889 knew1097 him846 not.3756 Joh 1:11 He came2064 unto1519 his own,2398 and2532 his own2398 received3880 him846 not.3756 John tells us this: • The Word was in the Universe • The Universe came into existence through the Word Joh 1:14 And2532 the3588 Word3056 was made1096 flesh,4561 and2532 dwelt4637 among1722 us,2254 (and2532 we beheld2300 his846 glory,1391 the glory1391 as5613 of the only begotten3439 of3844 the Father,)3962 full4134 of grace5485 and2532 truth.225 John tells us this: • The Word became flesh • The Word is Jesus Christ Thus….it is quite clear from the above that the Word is Jesus….and that Jesus brought into existence the entire physical Universe including the flesh of which He manifested His earthly tenure… Pulling together all that we have learned regarding this ayah… Thus…the outward rendering of 3.59… 3.59 Certainly Jesus' similitude present with allah; as/like Adam, He created him out of dust then said to him: "Be thou." so (he) is. The message behind the rendering: • Two comparisons are made “mathalu” & “kamathali” • The first (former) comparison is between Jesus and “allah” • Jesus is shown to be co-equal “mathalu” with “allah” • Jesus is shown to have always existed “inna” with “inda” “allah” • Jesus was not created • The second (latter) comparison is redundant to the former • The second comparison describes the creation “khalaqahu” of Adam • It is referring to man…not to Jesus • It is singular • It refers to the act of measuring; or determining the measure, proportion, or the like, of a thing; and the making a thing by measure, or according to the measure of another thing; or proportioning a thing to another thing • The originating or producing a thing after a pattern or model which one has devised, not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. • As meaning the bringing into existence from a state of no-existence. As an act of God, signifies the creating out of nothing • We are told that Adam was created, i.e. he had a beginning (out of nothing), in the likeness of his creator • Adam is made from dust ““turabin” • The creation of man in this ayah is rooted in sura 86…which shares the same root as “turabin” • The Word of “allah” brings forth Adam • The Word i.e. Jesus is co-equal with “allah” • Man is created through Jesus • Jesus is God Thus…it becomes quite clear that the second comparison of this ayah is simply re-enforcing the Biblical stance that Jesus (the Word) is what brought Adam into existence out of nothing. Perhaps now you see the futility in referring to your “tafsirs”… |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame