lemmein wrote: Hateful? I did not claim that sexual orientation cannot be changed. I said that there is little evidence that it can be. On the other hand, you have provided no evidence that it can be.

Yes, hateful. You have called all ex-gays liars, and assumed a lot based only on your prejudices and bigotry, which is what you object to in society in general.

lemmein wrote:The fact that ex-gay communities terribly misrepresent gay men and women already brings about a sense of discreditability that makes people like myself accepting their works to be a very, very difficult task.
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 02:45 pm

The mental health industry is not responsible for reparative therapy. Ex-gay groups are the ones that practice that unproven and potentially dangerous treatment. I don't see what connection between the mental health industry and reparative therapy you are trying to make.
Sun Apr 24, 2005 09:49 pm

I don't know any ex-gays and not without surprise since they are such a miniscule minority (In my opinion, they don't exist). However, you can't discredit my knowledge based on my experience with ex-gays since such knowledge can be achieved a priori. I did a research paper on reparative therapy and the ex-gay movement. What I found was some very disturbing information.
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 09:49 pm

Number one... sexual orientation cannot be changed and there is a lot of evidence to show that such attempts can lead to further mental problems that can cause suicide.
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:02 pm

You have painted a bigoted and inaccurate picture of the majority of ex-gays and you have also appealed to a professional organization whose track record is dismal at best.

Really, Aineo. I assume their track record is worse than organizations that 'conveniently' fail to document their work, lie about success rates and hand-pick subjects that skew the results of any attempts to study them objectively? I think not.
Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:48 am

And for obvious reasons. The ex-gay community has been terrible at providing evidence for their claims of success.
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:48 am

So says you. I do not fear the possibility of such a change since there is very little evidence of credibility of yours or the ex-gay community's work. Ex-gay groups have reduced homosexual desires though it has not been effective at producing heterosexual desires, which only nature can provide. This isn't exactly what I would call change since it is simply suppressing one's sexual desires. Anybody in a relationship would fear the suppression of sexual desires. I love my boyfriend and I would die before I would have to give him up.
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:48 am

Then, even you should have agreed on the APA's decision to take homosexuality of their list of disorders. But you and ex-gay community have yet to show some sign of convincing evidence that sexual orientation can be changed.
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:48 am

Aineo wrote:
Ah, I see you made two posts and I missed one, so you did respond to my question. It is unfortunate that you are so isolated from the real world you have not met an ex-gay since there are hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) in our society.

I highly doubt that. Your assertion that there are hundreds of thousands of ex-gays is simply laughable considering they are a minute minority within another minute minority. I have moved all over the world during the duration of my life and have gone to approximately 10 different schools. I sincerely don't think my 'isolation' has anything to do with it.
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 06:28 pm

Although there are a few ex-gays who have sold out to the political religious right and disseminate bad information concerning the gay community to make the blanket statements you have made are hateful and outright lies. I did miss one post you made and what was your reaction when I mentioned this? You questioned my integrity and truthfulness.

lemmein wrote:You continually use the tactic of using Camperio's inconclusive research to somehow conclude that sexual orientation is innate. Then, you claim that because it is innate, that it can be changed, without A.) sufficiently showing how Camperio's inconclusive studies show that homosexuality is innate, B.) sufficiently arguing that innateness equates to immutability, and C.) showing any evidence of ex-gay groups' claims to success.

You are misrepresenting what I posted.

Even if the study conducted by the University of Padua can be replicated and verified with further research, the conclusion reached by this study indicates:

"We know we've only explained 20% of the pattern," says Camperio-Ciani. The remaining 80% could perhaps be due to formative sexual and social experiences during early life or even childhood, he speculates. http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1295

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 08:01 am

That's nice. But you still accused me of forcing teens to come out when I condoned no such actions. What a way to avoid my highlight of your false accusations and assumptions.

Another misrepresentation, or an outright lie to use you terminology. Here is what I posted:

Now lets get back to gay teen suicides for a moment. I posted earlier that gay activists must take some responsibility for the gay teen suicide rate. Now what adult in their right mind would encourage gay teens to come out at a time in their lives they are dealing with major physiological and emotional changes? National Coming Out day is nothing more than adults exploiting children for a political agenda.
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:31 am

As to coming out and telling the world you are gay when you are a teen opens ones up to additional problems associated with puberty. Teens do not have the emotional maturity to handle the uneducated prejudice of their peers, which is based more on the fear of the unknown than anything else. So I will repeat, gay activists are manipulating and exploiting children for political reasons by encouraging immature teens to bare it all with society. Self-acceptance comes from within, not from society and coming out before one is emotionally mature can lead to suicide faster than waiting until later in life when most individuals have come to terms with their sexuality.
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 05:29 pm

You have taken these parts of my post as a personal attack aimed at you. As I posted earlier this thread and topic are not about you. You are appealing to your personal (and limited) experiences and when I do the same you cry foul.
You want statistics for those who have changed their sexual orientation?

One hundred and forty persons (102 males and 38 females) of an original study group of 248 individuals involved with the Christian ex-gay group, Exodus International, returned follow-up surveys that showed some remarkable data:
· Fully 94% reported that they had changed or were still pursuing change in their sexual orientation, from homosexual to heterosexual;
· 63% reported success in the behavioral change definition of the project (no oral-genital or anal homo-sex for the past year);
· 88% of those who did not succeed according to the homo-behavioral abstinence criteria were still pursuing change and had not given up;
factors that were correlated with successful change were high religious motivation, the lesser extent to which one had been immersed in the homosexual lifestyle, felt change in homosexual orientation, and a higher level of mental health and emotional well-being;
· Factors not correlated with success included gender, homosexual vs. bisexual orientation, involvement in a change group, and involvement in reorientation therapy (this last factor was put forth cautiously for when long-term and brief therapy was distinguished, those in long-term therapy showed a 70% success rate, while those in brief therapy showed a success rate of just 44%).
http://www.christianmentalhealth.com/do ... change.htm

All you have demonstrated is you don’t want to find accurate information. Tell me lemmein what were the sources of information for these comments:

I did a research paper on reparative therapy and the ex-gay movement. What I found was some very disturbing information.

Like your assertion that the ex-gay movement initiated reparative therapy, which is false?

The 'success' stories promoted by various ex-gay groups are always filled with people who have weird histories of alcoholism and sex addiction as seen in this article.[/quote]If that article is your only source of information then again all you have proven is that you could care less about truth and are seeking bigoted information from biased sources. Try this link for some stories that are not “weird histories of alcoholism and sex addiction”:
http://www.exodus-international.org/tes ... lity.shtml

You keep appealing to the APA even after I furnished you proof that the board of trustees were influenced by gay activism and high ranking gay psychiatrists when they removed homosexuality from the DSM III as a pathological disorder. The fact is many mental health professionals with impeccable credentials disagree with the APA, and are conducting on-going studies. Have you checked out the Journal of Homosexuality, read “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth”, or any other source of information that contradicts a professional organization that allowed activists to dictate policy and mental health decisions? Many people have a psychiatric pathological foundation for their behavior and in spite of your denials this includes some homosexuals.

So far your only source of information is the APA, personal experience, and Internet sites with an agenda to discredit what the ex-gay movement. Have you research genetics, personality, and the other factors that some experts in sexuality have stated influence sexual orientation?

You love your boyfriend, that is great but love is subjective and can change in a heartbeat. Why else to you think gay relationships are historically short-term? And let me guess you will come back with societal pressure and homophobia, which is nothing more than finger pointing and looking for a scapegoat to explain that the vast majority of gay relationships are unstable. Unlike you my experience with thousands of gay men and lesbian women covers over 40 years and I know why gay relationships break up and societal prejudice and homophobia are not factors.

Do you know that there is a new movement in the gay community to help gay men related as human beings and not simply sex objects? I volunteer for the Western Colorado AIDS Project where I interact with gay men weekly and one of these men is in charge of such a group that is affiliated with other such groups statewide.

Also your information concerning HIV/AIDS infection rates among MSM is totally false:

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention July 1997
The AIDS rate for men who have sex with men (MSM) continues to rise, but more slowly than earlier in the epidemic. Due to behavior changes which began in the 1980s, there has been a slowing in the overall rate of new AIDS cases among MSM and declines in new HIV infections have occurred in many areas. Although the overall numbers of AIDS cases among MSM have leveled, cases have steadily risen in some populations of MSM. Racial/ ethnic minority MSM have had large increases in AIDS rates, whereas AIDS rates have decreased slightly for white MSM. AIDS rates also have continued to rise among MSM in small cities and rural areas.
http://www.thebody.com/cdc/msm.html

This report is dated 1997 and is outdated. The MSM infection rate is on the increase. Here are some other Internet sites that prove you wrong:
http://www.wwc.org/PDF/factsmsm.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/msm.pdf

More and more gay men are bare-backing. The effectiveness of HIV/AIDS medications have lulled the younger generation of gay men into a false sense of security. Also have you heard of “bug chasers”?
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... .0.12.1059
http://gaylife.about.com/cs/gay101/a/bugparties.htm

Are those in the gay community any more evil than heterosexuals? No, people are people and to stereotype the gay community as evil perverts is just as false as your depiction of the ex-gay movement. As I posted above I know thousands of gay men and lesbian women and many of them are wonderful people with talents and abilities that enrich our society and to characterize all ex-gays the way you do is nothing more than hateful bigotry that is just a phobic as homophobia.

One last comment:

Whoa, whoa, whoa there! You completely presume that homosexuality is as pathological as addiction, which is totally unsupported. Homosexuality is not an addiction just like how heterosexuality is not an addiction. You have absolutely ZERO evidence of such an awful presumption and I would suggest you rethink what homosexuality means.

The "not" in my post was a typo. As I mentioned earlier I am an AIDS patient. I have cognitive problems associated with the virus and my medications and I occassionally have problems throwing in extra words in my posts that I do not always catch when proof reading. As to where I get the idea that heterosexuality is man's true identity you seem to forget this is a fundamentalist Christian message board and I am using terminology used by gay youth who have emailed me.