shhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:You just went into bla bla bla when faced with paganism admitted by the early church fathers.
I find it incredulous you are unable to see precisely what the church fathers were doing. Suppose someone sees a christian attending church on sunday, and suddenly declares this is the day the pagans worship the sun ergo christians are pagans. And the christian simply replys "I don't worship the sun this is what you do not me"
To you the christian has admitted verbatim that he is a pagan in direct conflict with his religious scripture???
If you want to take what the church fathers said out of context you will deceive no one but your already deceived sect within a sect.
Pls spare me your patronising air, we both know you are unable to defend your religion and attacking is really the only defense you have.
Really?
Seems your replies are either "lol...eat this...kid...or monosyllable insults"
Am I to take it you are unable to answer a straight forward question other than say "hey look at this in christianity".
Open another thread and ask me whatever you want.
Now, Where are the answers:
So Jews were right according to the OT and have all the right to kill Jesus.
Right?
You have not answered a single question that I have asked you, but have referred me to sunni muslims websites who utilise hadiths in their explanations when you are a shia and you do not believe in sunni hadiths!!!
there is a recurrent theme throughout all your posts, you have straight forward declined to answer direct questions, but instead for a response you make a direct attack on christianity on each succeeding post that requires your response, this is the behaviour of someone who is either unable to defend his own faith and must attack as his only form of defense or someone who is unwilling to turn the scrutiny on his own religion for fear of what he will find. You see if you were to turn half the scrutiny you have shown on christianity on islam you would be asking yourself why you are dressed in 6th century arabian garb, and bowing down to a pagan shrine hoping to get access to an eternal brothel somewhere in paradise. You are beginning to sound like a broken record. Rehashing the very same question that has been answered.
Did Jesus fulfill oany of these criteria?
Reading the Old Testament, we can draw out the criteria of the Messiah long awaited by the Children of Israel.
Criteria according to whom?
- The awaited Messiah must gather the Children of Israel from their exile and bring them back to Israel.
This can be read in [Isaiah 27:12-13 and Isaiah 11:12]
I take it you are oblivious to the fact that jews have been returning to israel for the last 50+ yrs?
BTW your understanding of those verses are seriously flawed this is what isa 27:12-13 says:
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
and isa 11:11-12
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
This is a future event, and seeing it says the Lord will be the one to gather the children of Israel are you admitting that the Messiah is the Lord?
In future I suggest you paste the biblical verses so at least you can assure yourself you know what you are talking about.
- He must establish peace all over the world.
This can be seen in [Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6]
Yes indeed when He returns there shall be peace, even your shia beliefs say so. It is becoming a little strange arguing with someone who is prepared to cut the hand that feeds him for the sake of an argument.
And again that is not what those verses speak of:
Isaiah 2:
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 11
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
This is talking about a future event,
"the last days" where violence will be no more, nothing whatsoever to do with the criteria for the Messiah, how you can misinterpret these verses is simply beyond me.
- He must provoke mankind to worship one God:
This can be seen in [Zephaniah 3:9]
When He returns for the final time, which is not what the verse says, it seems this is also a recurrent tactic, are you hoping folks in here are ignorant as to never check on the verses you spout?
Do you realise how much of a fool you are making yourself look?
- He must a direct descendant to King David.
This can be seen in [I Chronicles 17:11]. Genealogy in Jewish scripture only recognizes a physical father [Numbers 1:18].
Well now would you care to tell us why your koran calls Jesus the Messiah?
There is a very good reason why I ask you this, it's a simple question, and it involves you telling me how He is not the Messiah given the genealogy that you know, start with showing me the true genealogy according to your koran.
If someone fails to fulfill one of these criteria, then he can't be the Messiah.
Then tell us why the koran calls Him the Messiah... Al-Masih?
That is not an answer to my question, I would like you to show me the relevant excerpts from the website/s you are getting your information from, I ask this for a very good reason, anybody can post a myriad of website links and say "here go read", I suspect you don't really know what it is you are talking about and hoping other muslims have covered what you are ignorant of and are unwilling to scrutinise in your own religion. You have to do better than "eat this" this is a childish phrase not suited to an intellectual debate. You sound like your presence here is a joke.
This website has no relation to the questions I asked you, as I suspected you are unable to show me the excerpts from the website precisely because the website has nothing to do with the subject at hand instead it goes into an apologetic explanation why the 124,000 prophets in islam cannot be found (need I remind you that these are based on sunni ahadith which you reject what is the point in arguing in this manner using sources you do not believe for the sake of arguing? this reeks of desperation). It then goes into an unwarranted attack on judaism and blames it for the loss of this phantom 124,000 prophets, nothing whatsoever to do with why Jesus is called the Messiah in the koran.